Sarah Jayne Dunn - Episode Transcript

Helen

Hi, I'm Helen, and this is Why Mums Don't Jump: busting taboos about leaks and lumps after childbirth. All the stuff that happens to your pelvic floor that no one ever talks about - incontinence prolapse, pelvic pain. Problems that affect millions of women, one-in-three! I'm one of them. I have a prolapse. My pelvic organs fell out of place after the birth of my second child. And if you had told me back then that I would be speaking about this stuff out loud, I would have told you to give your head a wobble.

Hi, welcome back. Or welcome, if you're joining us for the first time.

I really need to catch you up on what's been going on because so much has happened in the last couple of weeks since the book was released. We've had two launch events, one in London, one in Manchester, because why not? With loads of people who - I'm not going to list them - because I'll be here forever and I'll forget someone. But loads of people who've been involved, and some of the amazing women who have allowed me to share their stories, the experts who have lent their wisdom. We met, we mingled. It was a lot of fun. Then there's been the publicity around the launch, including an article in a national newspaper last week. And off the back of that, women have sent me some beautiful messages and emails and I haven't had a chance to go through them all yet, but I will. And some of them talk about how they've been struggling for years or even decades with pelvic floor issues with little or no support, which just underlines the point of this whole thing. Then there was a radio interview on BBC 5 live last week where myself and the pelvic health physiotherapist Emma Brockwell got to chat with the broadcaster Nihal Arthanayake for nearly an hour, and which had such a great response, including this call from a dad who he got on air, who had heard the discussion and then left work early to go home and hug his wife because he sort of finally understood what she'd been through with her pelvic floor problems.

I'm not sure if I've explained that very well, but listen back on BBC Sounds if you get a chance. It was quite a moment.

So that all happened. And then there's just been this general response from loads of people - reviews of the book that have been so nice to read. One woman told me she'd read seven chapters in a weekend and that every word resonated, and I was really so happy to know that it's having this impact. So if you've bought it, thank you. If you've read it and you like it, please leave a review on Amazon, even if you didn't buy it there, because it will help others to find it. That's enough from me.

On today's episode... so this is really about just how hard it can be to recover from childbirth, especially if it hasn't gone exactly to plan. It's about our lack of knowledge, about what our bodies have gone through and the challenge of finding the right support to get us back to where we want to be. I'm quite excited to tell you that I had the nicest chat with the actress Sarah Jayne Dunn, who you might know from the drama Hollyoaks. She played Mandy Richardson for 20 years. She is co-host of the Hot and Bothered podcast. She's a star of Only Fans. And something you may not know about Sarah is that she's a fitness instructor and so is her husband. And as luck would have it, they both qualified in pre and postnatal fitness just as they got pregnant with their child, with their son, which was around seven years ago.

Now, I never know what's useful in terms of trigger warnings, so please bear in mind that we are going to jump straight in with Sarah's experience of childbirth, including a ventouse delivery, episiotomy retained placenta. She'd had an induction where her waters were broken and she'd had a long pushing stage as well. And I'll let her pick it up from here:

Sarah

And I remember thinking, okay, this is fine, I can manage this. It's not as sort of intense as... I think when you never had a baby and you hear all these horror stories, don't you, and you don't know what to expect. And some people say it's the most horrendous thing ever and some people say it's a breeze. And I think in my head, I'd sort of gone, it's going to really, really hurt like it's going to be... and you see dramas, don't you, where people are screaming...there's no sort of real representation of what birth is. And I guess that's because it looks different for everyone.

Helen

Exactly.

Sarah

So you can't go this is how it's going to go. So for me, I think it was bearable. Like I could do it. My pain threshold is quite high anyway, I think. And I had my husband there with me and had Beyonce on playing the background on a loop, like she's my she's my warrior, she's going to get me through this.

And it got to...I'd been pushing, like I say, for a long time and I remember thinking...I was bearing down and nothing was happening... and I remember thinking, I got to a point and I was so tired. So it wasn't the pain anymore, I was just exhausted. I hadn't eaten because I'd have the gas and air and I'd been sick, so whatever I'd eaten before, I had no longer had. I was drinking Lucozade, so I was just like going through all the power drinks and I got to the point where...I couldn't go for a wee anymore either because everything just felt so heavy, like he was so ready to come out, but for some reason he wasn't. And it all sort of then - you see the room change, don't you?

Helen

Yeah, the atmosphere...the atmosphere changes

Sarah

Yeah. And I had a lovely midwife and because of shifts changing, I had another midwife. And so you've sort of got a few different people on that journey with you. And I remember it went from being sort of calm and yeah, when you feel like you need to push, you just push and you just go for it, to them really being like, come on, you need to push. And almost feeling like it was my fault that it wasn't coming out. And I'm thinking, I'm doing everything I can and I'm pushing and I'm bearing down and I'm doing everything that... like I've been told in your prenatal classes, and nothing was happening. And then that's when the court started calling the doctors in.

And they couldn't really work out why he wasn't coming. I think they could see the top of his head, but he just wasn't moving past a certain point. And then I think then they obviously intervene physically, so suddenly there's a doctor's hand, and it starts for me, that was when it started becoming painful, because obviously... but at that point as well, I think you're so ready for your child to be out, aren't you? I was exhausted, so it was sort of a bit of...whatever needs to happen now. One, for his safety, two, for this to be over with, and just lets you know. So you sort of put your trust in that team that are around you, and they were amazing.

So in the end, he wasn't moving and I think they were getting worried about him, obviously, as well, and me. And so the doctors changed shift again. So I had one doctor come in and he tried to sort of intervene and they were really encouraging me to push, and then I think he made the decision to then cut me. So I didn't tear, I was cut. And again, it's all a bit of a blur, that, because your adrenaline is just pumping, isn't it? And you are just in well, you're.

Helen

You're so tired as well, you're delirious, aren't you?

Sarah

And you're off your head on gas and air. And so he cut me, and I obviously remember that, but I remember thinking, again, whatever we need, I just want my baby out safe. And then they used the ventouse, so they had to help him out, and that worked, pulled, I remember, like his head coming out and then the next bit is pretty easy, isn't it? He just came out, they put him on me. They checked him first, obviously, then they put him on me. So we had our sort of contact skin-on-skin moment and then you're sort of still there, aren't you, with your legs in the lovely what they called?

Helen

Stirrups?

Sarah

Stirrups that's it. And I was just then with Stanley, and very much so relieved that it was over and thinking, well, that's it now the worst bit is done because, again, you're not told. Like, once you have the baby, no one tells you what happens next.

Helen

No

Sarah

I don't remember ever being told that bit, ever being told like the step by step, like, once you've had the child, these are the possibilities, depending on how the birth's gone. I don't think I was ever told that actually.

Helen

I don't think so either. You're so busy getting through the pregnancy to the point of birth and what that might be like, and then it's like after that, no idea.

Sarah

You're on your own. Yeah. And there should be some sort of...there should be information and that's why these conversations are great, aren't they? And why it's amazing to have these openly and to be honest. And that's why I like to be really honest about it because we need to be informed, like, whatever that looks like. And just hearing different women's stories is so important, and I wish I had. I'd be much more clued up now if I had another child, but I wasn't before. And like you say, you're all sort of...it's all about the pregnancy and it's all about the birth, and then it's like...and bang.

So I was sort of in my little bubble, relieved that I'd had him, relieved that he was safe. He was on me, skin-on-skin. And then I remember another doctor, so that's what happened then - the doctors changed shift.

Helen

Okay. Yeah.

Sarah

Again. So another doctor came in, so not the one that had delivered Stanley. They sort of swapped and he came in and they were like, right, we need to get your placenta out. Again, I knew nothing about this. I don't think it was something... I'd either not registered or it hadn't been explained to me that once you had the baby, that wasn't it. You then had to get your placenta out. And I didn't know what that meant or what that looked like.

And so the midwife and the doctor were like, we need to get your placenta out. You just sort of, like, relax as much as you can and we're going to just pull it out. We might need you to push a little bit. It's like, Right, okay, I can do that. And I will never forget what happened next. So the doctor was literally pulling on the umbilical cord. It was almost like he had his feet up against the bed because he's pulling with such force and there's a midwife stood behind him. And all of a sudden the tension just went.

And I saw his face, and I saw the midwife's face. And I will never forget the look on their faces because I knew at that moment that something wasn't right, that whatever had happened wasn't supposed to happen. And they looked at me and the midwife must have seen my face sort of going, what the hell? She was like, It's fine, it's fine. Your placenta hasn't come out. So basically, the umbilical cord had snapped, so my placenta was still inside my womb.

And so the next thing that then sort of happened was like, right, we're going to have to get you take you down to theatre. So Stanley was taken off me, he was given to to my husband. So they had their time, the skin-on-skin, and I was taken down to theatre, which, again, I didn't really think much of.

And I was so full of emotion and hormones. And I remember I went down the corridor past my mum and dad and my in laws, and it's the first time I'd seen them since I'd had Stanley, and I was like, It's a boy. And I remember giving, like, my dad a high five and being like, It's amazing. Not really. And I was like, I'm just going to theatre, I'll be fine, I'll be back soon. No idea of the extent of sort of what was happening to me.

And again, your concern isn't yourself at that moment, is it? So I was taken down to theatre, I was given an epidural. So after 8 hours of labour, I was then given an epidural. So I was like, really? I could have had this? Yeah, brilliant. And then, basically, the doctor had to go in with his hand and remove my placenta. And I remember them talking me through, so the midwife sort of talking me through that and I again, sort of being then numb from obviously from the neck down or the chest down, and them saying, right, we're going to be removing your placenta. This could cause damage to your womb, this could affect future pregnancies, we might not get it all, so then we might have to go in again at some point. And all of this information, I was just like, what is this? Whilst this doctor is doing horrific, really horrific, when you think of what they're doing, it was amazing that they can do that. But still I was like ugh and then so I guess I was fortunate, in a sense, that I got stitched up as well during that. So it was the doctor that actually did my stitches. But again, I remember the nurse saying to me, okay, right, your cut is quite significant, it's a second degree cut and so we're going to stitch it up. And again, I didn't know what that meant, so I was just like, oh, thank you. I remember saying thank you, and her being like, well, it's quite a big thing and it might cause incontinence, and all this information and being so vulnerable, I guess, at that point, and having no one with me, I was on my own. I didn't have my husband by my side at this point, so I didn't even have anyone to take that information in for me and to sort of understand the gravitas of that. It was just me sort of going okay.

Helen

You just can't. I had a really similar experience. So my son was a V back, so he was a vaginal birth, whereas his sister, two years before had been a C section.

Sarah

Right.

Helen

And so I had a third degree tear with him and ended up, as you say, similar sort of thing. Didn't have a spinal, didn't have an epidural when he was being born, but then had to go into surgery and all that. I remember lying there as the guy was stitching me up in all kinds of serious ways and thinking, yep, this time I've done it properly because he came out of the right hole. Last time, I had failed in some way as a mother because I'd had a C section, but this time I did properly. But I just had so...I was completely unaware of the damage that had been caused or what that might mean or anything. It's just a few stitches, right? Everyone has that when they have a baby, so it must be fine. No understanding at all.

Sarah

Yeah, that was it. No understanding, yeah. And not knowing what the second degree meant. What des that mean?

Helen

No I'd never heard of it

Sarah

Obviously I didn't know what it looked like. I couldn't feel anything at that point, you would have been the same. So you're aware that they're doing something, but you can't sort of feel the extent of it. And then you were probably similar. Then I went into recovery, then the recovery room. So I'd had Stanley at, like, I think, 08:00 at night. So this was happening quite late by this point. And they popped me in a recovery room and there was no one else in there. So I'm lying there, numb, and just thinking, I don't know what's just happened. How did I end up in here? Where is my baby? I was like, I'm just presuming that he's okay. Like, obviously he's with his dad, but. I want to be with him.

Helen

Yeah

Sarah

I just hadn't had that time with him yet. Sort of had a few moments and then was whisked away. And then eventually I was taken back down to the ward. Obviously so relieved to see my baby. So relieved to see my husband because he didn't know either. He had no idea what was going on. So not only was I not really sure what was going on, my husband hadn't been informed. He just knew that I'd been taken off.

Helen

Which is really scary.

Sarah

Really scary for him because, again, like, we're just not told, are we? So when I eventually got back to him, he was really relieved to see me. Obviously, Stanley, I got to hold and feed, but then again it goes then from it wasn't about me again anymore. It was suddenly like, right, let's get your breastfeeding, let's get the baby sorted. And at that point, it would have been like my legs, I still had no feeling, so I couldn't get up and walk about. I didn't know what was going on. I was in hospital then - we were both in hospital for a week - nothing to do with what had happened during my delivery. Mine was, Stanley got an infection and I got an infection, so he was then on antibiotics for a week and I had to obviously stay in with him. So we were then in hospital for a week after that.

Helen

My goodness, what a start. What a way to enter the world.

Sarah

In with a bang. Yeah.

Helen

So in terms of recovering afterwards, then, at what point did you realise recovery was not going to be a walk in the park?

Sarah

It was probably...so we had that week in the hospital and I remember obviously being in the hospital was quite useful again, because the midwives nurses would check my stitches every day. And again, I didn't really know what was going on down there. I just knew that every time I went for a wee, you have to sort of douche, don't you? So I had to take a jug of water and a clean towel and everything was very, very sensitive, and I felt really lonely because during the day it was great, I had visitors, but during the night, which I found the hardest, I was on my own. And again, you have the midwives there. But they do leave you to it.

Helen

And the baby needs tending all night and you have to sort of drag yourself across the bed when all hell has broken loose and it hurts. And you've got to pick up this baby and look after it.

Sarah

And attach it to your boob. If you're breastfeeding. And you're learning all of that, aren't you? Yeah, I found that week really difficult. So in a lot of ways, like, physically for me, mentally, emotionally. So when I got home, I think I sort of thought, well, this is it now, I'm home, like, everything will be okay, I've got help. And it wasn't until I think it was sort of the magnitude of... I thought my stitches would just heal and everything would be okay and I'd sort of be comfortable and be able to take slowly get back up to speed with things. And to an extent, I sort of did - you sit on the cushion like you do. You've got your little safety cushion, haven't you, when you sit down? And I was so keen to sort of get back to normal life for myself, I think, especially because I'd had that week in hospital, that I would go out for like, little walks, but for me, it was sort of the healing didn't happen as quickly as I thought it would. I remember the midwife coming out because again, I didn't like... I don't...you don't want your husband to have a look down there, do you?

Helen

And I didn't want to look myself to be honest, because I didn't want to know.

Sarah

Yeah, exactly. Same. So I guess I could have got a mirror and had a look, but I didn't because I didn't want to know. So I was just aware of it being very sensitive and again, at home, continuing like the douching and all of that. I think I had a midwife visit and she checked them for me, so that was great and sort of reassuring. And she told me everything looked like it was, like, healing normally and everything looked well, so that was great. So I didn't really notice the extent of what had happened until... I guess until it had sort of healed to a point and the stitches had gone. And then what I found was it was then really painful every time I went to the toilet for a number two, a poo basically, it was to the point where it was excruciating, like it was unbearable and I would sit and I'd dread it

Helen

Which makes it worse. Right? Because then you tense up.

Sarah

Exactly. And obviously it's something that you have to do, so there's no avoiding it. But I would literally spend a long time in the toilet because it would be so painful, and then I would bleed, and it would bleed quite a lot, so that's always worrying because it's not something you want to see. And I didn't know what was going on and as far as I was aware, I was healed as much as I was going to be. So then that became like... that went on probably for, I'd say, a year of that, of it being very painful, going to the doctors, and then I think they gave me suppositories. Again, that's obviously then quite painful because it's then a tender area. So for me, this was because of the second degree cut, so I think they cut me quite badly. And I don't know whether that was because he was in a rush to get Stanley out or what had happened, but it was quite significant. And then I'd got like an anal tear because of that then as well. So it went on for quite a while and there was no sort of...the thing is, when I went to the doctor, I remember them sort of it felt like it was a well, it is what it is.

Helen

Urgh I hear this so often, it's the standard, you've had a baby, what do you expect?

Sarah

Yeah, these things can happen. And it felt like it was more a case of, well, these things can happen. Obviously. Unfortunately, it's happened to you, so these are ways that we can manage it, rather than... there was no cure, there was no, like, oh, you just need to do this, or you need to rest, or we can do this for you. It was...this is sort of it, and these are the measurements that we have in place and just keep an eye on it. But it wasn't sustainable either. I think they gave me...so I had suppositories and then I forgot what it's called but obviously a sort of laxative, essentially, yeah. And they're not things that you're wanting to use every day for the rest of my life, and it's not sustainable isn't it? It's not nice either, it's not something that you want to do.

So it went on probably for about a year with no answer. I think it's the fact that I had sort of no idea that there could be long term repercussions of a cut, or a tear, or how bad it can get, that there can be prolapse and incontinence and piles. The stuff again, that I think all pregnant women get or postnatally you get, and you're just not told about these things. And why should we be embarrassed? And I think, tell me a woman that's had a baby that hasn't had one of these issues or experienced something along these lines. It's never straightforward, is it? But it's so taboo, hush hush.

Helen

Hidden. It's just hidden.

Sarah

Yeah. Secretive.

Helen

Yeah. I mean all of the language that we use... like when I had a prolapse, I had never heard the word prolapse before, I didn't know what a pelvic floor was. I mean, I had a vague idea that if at some point you had a little leak when you laughed or coughed, you could do pelvic floor exercises and a few of those would sort it all out. And that was kind of like the really naive level I understood any of it at. Just no idea of the gravity and what that can mean then physically and mentally for you. Because, as you say, nobody wants to think that every time they visit the toilet they're going to be in excruciating pain, or that they have to live a life on laxatives and all the rest of it. It's just so damaging to your sense of self and your relationship with yourself and your body and your relationship with your baby and your relationship with your partner and all of those things. It's so hard and yet it's delivered in, often not always, but sometimes delivered in such a matter of fact way. That's it now.

Sarah

Yeah, that's it. This is it. And like you say, it's the impact that it has, or can have, on your relationship as well. Because, again, you never sort of,...when it comes to having sex, again, you're never told what that looks like or might look like. And obviously, myself and yourself, that wasn't something that was an option for a long time after having a baby. One, because it was uncomfortable. And I was really nervous about that, I remember. And I still have like scar tissue. I imagine you're the same, from the cut that can still sometimes be sensitive now and even if it's like you're wearing a tight pair of trousers or something, that can be a little bit uncomfortable and that's not something I had before and that's something that I will have forever. There's nothing I can do about that.

So it does affect you massively physically and like you say, mentally, then it's sort of it's a confidence thing, isn't it? And I think we're sort of programmed to think as women that, yeah, that's just the way it is and there's no hope, so suck it up. But it's not, that's not the you know, that's not the truth about it, is it? And I think that's why these conversations are really important.

Helen

Yeah. And I don't did did you get like a diagnosis or was there a name? Was it anal fissures? Is that what they said it was?

Sarah

Yes

Helen

Okay, and how were you otherwise in terms of other symptoms, like pelvic floor issues or any other kind of things that cropped up at that period? Or was that the main thing?

Sarah

That was the main thing. Pelvic floor - so I knew about pelvic floor because of my pre and postnatal training. The women, and they're amazing, they're called the Female Fitness Academy. I went as soon as I could after having Stanley. They have classes and you can take your baby with you. You just put them on a little play mat and you're right next to them, and they literally do the very basic pelvic floor work, the stuff that people go, you need to do this, but you don't know what you're doing on your own. You sort of need that guidance.

And I think I remember the only thing that I got told about this if I hadn't have known it myself. So if I had none of that knowledge, someone came around one day and gave me a yellow leaflet when I was lying in the hospital bed. Didn't even tell me what it was. Just put this leaflet, like, on my table where my drinks were. And I remember my husband picking it up, and it was like, you should do these pelvic floor exercises. Now, I imagine so many people discard that or don't even look at it, or go, I'm not going to do that, or don't understand the gravity of what that is and how important that is after having a baby. So one, I knew and I understood, I have the knowledge of the anatomy, but two, I went to these classes, and I would recommend them to any women that have had a baby, whether it's 1st, 2nd, 3rd, whatever. Or women that haven't, to be honest, just working on your pelvic floor is so important, and it's so simple once you understand what you're connecting and what it is that you're actually supposed to be doing.

And it was more of... like it was a lovely little social gathering. We did the pelvic floor work, we did very light exercise and it was lovely. We came out, we'd always go for a little coffee afterwards with our babies, so it was a nice way to get out of the house as well. So I found it really beneficial, and then I would walk as well and try and do whatever I could, but I never put any pressure on myself, and I think that's really important. And I wanted to embrace being a mummy for the first time. I wanted to just be with him and it be about him. But I think when I did then start getting back into more physical exercise, that's when the impact of what had happened to me physically, I started to notice a bit more, because I did then find it uncomfortable to do certain things.

Helen

So sort of pain with movement?

Sarah

Yeah. I think down, down there. Yeah, it was just sensitive, and I think it might have even been more sort of psychological. I was very conscious that I had this area that was sensitive and that wasn't quite right yet. And I think it was more sort of in my own head than anything. And actually, then, sort of ironically, what cured everything for me was getting back into exercise and changing my nutrition and getting back into a really good rhythm and routine, because touch wood, like I say, it lasted about a year, maybe a year to 14 months, I'd say. I then really got back into training again because I trained for... we got married when Stan was about 18 months old.

Helen

Okay

Sarah

And it was that that fixed it. So it was that for me, that was the thing that, you know, it wasn't the suppositories, it wasn't the laxatives, it wasn't that, oh, we can't really do much. It was the right, let's eat really well, really healthily. That in itself made it easier. And I think then training and getting back into proper strength training for me, obviously had an impact on pelvic floor, but I don't know how to sort of describe it. It sort of just brought everything together and I was the sort of the fittest that I'd ever been. And yeah, then it sort of put that behind me. Like I say, the only thing I sort of got now is the scar tissue, but that's not something that will ever go away.

Helen

It strikes me that you've really carved out your own recovery plan. And I think this is part of... we talked about you have the baby in hospital and then you just left to your own devices. And I think for loads of women who haven't got the knowledge that you had, and haven't necessarily got kind of the fitness contacts, or the sense of where you could go to just start that very gentle exercise and build it up piece by piece by piece, this is where a lot of the issues lie, isn't it? Because we just sort of... imagine if you had just left hospital with none of that information, without the ability to carve that plan out for yourself, you wouldn't be where you are now, would you?

Sarah

No. And I think it's also the not believing all the stuff that you hear as well. Again, because I had that knowledge, and still now a lot of my friends will go, oh, I can't go in a trampoline, because I'll wee, I just can't do that anymore. It's like, it feels like a lot of people have just been defeated and gone, well, that's what it is now, because that's what we've been told. That's just the way it is now. And I refuse to believe that, one, because I sort of knew, but two, because I was like, Nah, this can't be. It's like, I like my life too much to just go, no, that's it now, I'm done. And it's not... obviously my life is about Stanley, but it's still about me. And I think a lot of it for me was that I wanted to regain my identity as Sarah and be Sarah and Stanley's mummy, not just Stanley's mum and I'm written off now, like, that's it, that's me done.

So I think a lot of it is there's so much good information out there now. We're really lucky that there's a lot of amazing podcasts, there's a lot of amazing experts out there, we've got a lot of resources for free at our fingertips, but it's just making sure that you're finding the right ones, and sort of not just sort of going, yeah, well, yeah, that's it, because it's not it. We've got our whole lives ahead of us.

Helen

And then look at Sarah pole dancing her way to incredible fitness. I mean, God, the stamina and the strength!

Sarah

And I'm obsessed with the pole dancing. I love it. I found, like, I started it as a bit of a whole, see, if I like it, I'd done it, obviously. I did it like on a Hen Do or a couple of Hen Do's over the years and gone, oh, this could be fun. And then found somewhere and I am obsessed. I'm addicted to it. I love it. So i still do the gym. But I found something that I really is challenging and rewarding and it's a real lovely female community that is super supportive. So it's right up my street.

Helen

Yeah, it looks really empowering and quite inspiring, I think, as well, to think you described the birth that you had, and the difficulties you had for a whole year or more afterwards. And now to be at a point where you can do that, that is real kind of Wonder Woman type vibes.

Sarah

Yeah most of the women that are there are mums. There's one lady, I don't know how old she is, but she's older than me and she's had a double hip replacement and she is up that pole upside down. And I'm just like, well, if you could do it, then I could do it. Do you know what I mean?

We're unstoppable, we've got to know that and we've got to just do it in the right way and listen to your body and listen to yourselves and get the right advice. But, yeah, having a baby is for me. It was the sort of start of my life, not the end.

Helen

Well, that feels like a really good point to finish. Sarah Jayne Dunn, I'm so grateful for your honesty around this. We really should be talking more about the realities of recovering from childbirth and what you can do to rehabilitate over weeks or months or years or longer.

You can find Sarah on Instagram. She is @sarahjaynedunn. More details in the show notes. As ever, keep in mind that we are not medical professionals, so please don't take anything you hear as medical advice, but do seek out your own professional help. You've been listening to Why Mums Don't Jump with me, Helen Ledwick. You can find me on socials @whymumsdontjump or online at whymumsdontjump.com The book is called 'Why Mums Don't Jump: Ending the Pelvic Floor Taboo'. And it's available to buynow. See you next week.