Katie's Story - Episode Transcript

Helen

Hi, I'm Helen, and this is Why Mums Don't Jump: busting taboos about leaks and lumps after childbirth. All the stuff that happens to your pelvic floor that no one ever talks about - incontinence prolapse, pelvic pain. Problems that affect millions of women, one-in-three! I'm one of them. I have a prolapse. My pelvic organs fell out of place after the birth of my second child. And if you had told me back then that I would be speaking about this stuff out loud, I would have told you to give your head a wobble.

Oh, my goodness. We're back with a fourth season and I don't even know where to start. There's so much going on. The headline is that there's a book coming out this week, in fact. A book. A book. A Why Mums Don't Jump book, which happened after a listener who was also a literary agent got in touch, the wonderful Kerry Glencorse, and asked if I might consider writing one.

I know, it sounds totally like a Disney film, but it wasn't. And with Kerry's help, I have actually written a book. And I think I can safely say it's one of the hardest things I've ever done. My heart and soul are on those pages.

It's based on the podcast. It's built around the stories of some of the brave and brilliant women I've been able to speak to over the past three seasons, alongside some of the experts who have given up their time to help to guide us. It's my story, too.

I really, really hope it helps to smash a huge hole in the taboo that surrounds pelvic floor problems and leaves women suffering in silence and in shame. It feels like a really big deal in my life. And it's all happened in such a magical way through the community, this community. So thanks to everyone who has listened and shared and reviewed and sent me lovely messages along the way.

And on we go. Another season packed with women's stories and expert voices who are going granular on surgery, on pelvic pain and loads more besides. And I don't think I'm ready for it all. I'm not ready for any of it. But then, when are we ever really ready? So here goes. This is a listener's story. Katie Nicolson, who lives in Liverpool with her husband and two year old son, and she has a really great story to tell. On Instagram she is at Mummy to London Marathon, which gives you some clue as to where this is heading. I'll let her tell you the rest.

Katie

I've always ran from probably about the age of 15/16, and I've never really been interested in running a marathon, but I always entered the ballot. I was like, well, if it happens, it happens. And we were trying to conceive and I said to my husband, I'll get a marathon place this year, and you bet your bottom dollar I got a marathon place.

Helen

That is so typical!

Katie

So typical. So I was like, well, it's not worked out. It's been about six months so far. And I was like, So let's just train. I was like and see what happens. So this was 2019 and I was training and I ran up to about, probably 16 miles or so, and then COVID hit and the marathon was cancelled. And as soon as I stopped training, I fell pregnant. Don't know if that was a sign I was probably training too hard. And then obviously marathon got cancelled and I was pregnant. So Lucas arrived in December 2020, but in the back of my mind, I was always like, what am I going to do? How am I going to run a marathon after having a baby? And then obviously, to be honest, I didn't really know a lot about kind of things that could happen during birth.

Helen

No - nobody does!

Katie

No and because everything was online, I think I had like 1 hour, like, antenatal class.

Helen

Oh, gosh. Yeah.

Katie

So I remember them saying, oh, if you have a tear, you'll receive stitches or whatever, and if it's really bad, then you'll go to theatre. And that was the extent of my knowledge. So then when Lucas arrived, he was quite big, nine pound eight, and he arrived quite quickly for a first time mum. And I had him in the water and I didn't want to get out of the water because I was in too much pain, so I was just like, I just want to say, so I was in the water for about two, maybe 3 hours. And I had some bladder retention as well, because I was in the water and I didn't go out to go to the toilet. And obviously it was a bit of a big baby, first time mum, in the water for a very long time. And then the third degree tear happened.

So that was the start, really, but it always, in my head, I was like, I've got to run this marathon, I've got to run this marathon. It's a London marathon, it's the biggest marathon in the whole of the UK and I always wanted to do that.

Helen

So tell me, you were not thinking that actually during the birth?

Katie

Not during the birth.

Helen

Okay, good.

Katie

But very soon after. And I didn't really realise the extent of what happened and how serious it can be. And life changing for some people.

Helen

No, that was my thing as well. I heard third degree tear. Like you I knew I could tear - everybody tears, a little tear, a few stitches, off you go. No concept whatsoever of what that actually meant for my body or how serious that was.

Katie

Yeah, I remember leaving the hospital and I'd waited to like empty my bladder and stuff to make sure everything was okay. And I remember leaving the hospital with basically a shopping bag of medication and I was like, oh. I was like, wow. I think there was maybe three different types of antibiotics and two different laxatives, painkillers galore. And I remember thinking, wow. I was like, this is heavy.

And they were like it was like a ten day course, I think. And my mum worked in a pharmacy and she said to me, those antibiotics, Katie, like, you cannot have a drink. You will be violently ill. And I was like, oh. I was like, okay. Not that I was planning to, but obviously Christmas was coming up. I think she was like, you need a good few days off them before you have even a sip. Because they're the kind that you get when you go to the dentist and you've got like...

Helen

Hardcore?

Katie

Yeah. And she was like, do not. And I was like, oh, no plans to. Don't worry.

So from there, obviously, COVID, so we weren't really seeing many people. I remember us getting one of those rubber rings to sit on? Yes, but I think the sleep was the hardest thing in the first couple of days because I knew...like Mark knew that I needed...I hadn't really slept well in the hospital. And he was like, if you're going to recover, you need like that. It's just like the guilt element as well. And I think it was the first night we were home, we were up and downstairs with the moses basket and I remember just standing up off the sofa. I just completely lost control of my bladder and just wet myself. And I was like, oh, my gosh. I only stood up and I was like, is this how it's going to be? I was like, that really panicked me. And I had hold of Lucas and I was like, Marcus, I've just wet myself.

And to be honest, that was a fairly isolated incident. But no one even warns you that...I mean, I don't know if that's common or what, but it didn't feel like...it felt very alien and it was quite scary. So I think from that point, I was like, I didn't really want to look online because that scared me more. Like, doctor Google is just not your friend in those situations. So I just leant on my mum and Mark's mum a lot for help and support and they'd come and take washing and cook meals and stuff and try and just.

Helen

Thank goodness for grandmas!

Katie

Literally. And Mark is amazing at housework and things, so he was just very much like I always remember in the shower when you've got like a little window thing to wipe the water off the walls and squeeze things. Yeah, a little squeegie. And I remember he wouldn't even let me do that in case I did too much. And it's like a simple thing, but he was like, no bending or anything. But yeah, it was pretty intense and I think it was a blessing and a curse with COVID because I didn't have to go anywhere. So in some ways that probably helped.

Helen

Yeah, there's no pressure to get out and meet people and get to the playgroups and do all those kind of things. As useful as that can be, and as kind of reaffirming as it is to chat with other mums in the same boat, yeah, maybe that can add a bit of pressure that you could do without in those early weeks at least.

Katie

Definitely. So I think then Lucas was like, ten days before Christmas and then I think by January, we were in a proper lockdown anyway, so it was just a case of survive and stay at home with the baby. And it was nice in some ways and we established a really good routine and stuff, but I think in hindsight, it helped from a recovery point of view.

Helen

So tell me about your recovery and especially about your pelvic floor stuff, then. How did that pan out?

Katie

So we did go to B&Q, actually, as you do...

Helen

Haha what's this got to do with your pelvic floor?!

Katie

Because we knew that we were going into another lockdown and Mark was like, we don't know how long this lockdown is going to be. I want to get some fence paint in case the weather clears up and I want to be able to do the garden. So off we popped in between Christmas and New Year and it was like, let's get stuff in case it ends up being spring by the time we're free.

So we went and we went to Costa and I had a hot chocolate, we went into B&Q and I thought that I was about to pass wind and I wasn't. And I looked at Mark and I said, we need to go now. But he was like, Can't I go to the till? And I said, absolutely no way. I was mortified and I was just like, Is this going to be my life? You know, I was like, this is just mortifying. And we got in the car and, like, came home. It was only a couple of minutes drive, but it felt like I was like, I could not wait to get through that front door. And I was just, like, so embarrassed. I honestly thought that it was going to be like that for a long time and I'm really fortunate that that was a one off incident.

Helen

And sorry to be, like, really detailed. This is, urinary incontinence, is it?

Katie

No, bowel incontinence.

Helen

I can only imagine in that moment that must have been just heartbreaking for you.

Katie

It was horrific. Yeah, and there's not many people have told that story to, so this is really putting out there for the women that go through this, because I know there's a lot of women that suffer daily with this kind of thing from birth injuries and it makes me feel really lucky that I'm not in that position.

But when it happened, it was mortifying and I couldn't wait to get home and clean myself up, basically.

But, yeah, that was the worst of it, thankfully. And then, obviously, you're kind of still bleeding for a while after, and I was a bit like, Am I bleeding or am I wetting myself? Not really sure. Wasn't really sure. And the Women's were really good. I had a six week appointment and I went to see one of the midwives there.

Helen

This is back at the hospital where you delivered?

Katie

Back at the hospital where I delivered, yeah. So it's six weeks. You go back there and then you have your general GP follow up, too. So I was really impressed by that because that came through pretty much straight away.

Helen

Yeah that's great. Is that because you had a tear?

Katie

Yeah. Third degree tear. So I saw the midwife there and she did an assessment and stuff, and she said that I needed to see the physio, which was quite normal for a third degree tear, but she said that I wasn't able to lift my pelvic floor. I was kind of, like, bearing down. And I mean, I remember trying to do the squeezes in pregnancy but because I didn't see anyone because it was COVID and stuff. I had no clue what I was doing. I was squeezing my bum cheeks...and my thighs.

Helen

Katie you are not alone with that one.

Katie

I still think, now, am I doing this right?

Helen

Yeah.

Katie

And I've had many physio appointments, but once you lose the knack, you do kind of doubt yourself. Is this right?

So she referred me from that point, and I actually asked her at that six week appointment if I was going to be able to run the marathon. And she kind of looked at me as if to say, don't think so, honey. And I remember being like, But I really, really want to. And she was like, let's just see how it goes.

And the marathon was actually scheduled for April 2022, but fortunately for me, it was pushed back to the October, so I had, like, another six months, which was, like, the best thing that could have happened, really. I needed those extra six months. So from there -physio: I had my first appointment, but it was on the phone.

Helen

Oh with the best will in the world how is that going to work? You just told me how hard it is to know if you're doing a pelvic four squeeze...like over the phone?! It's better than nothing.

Katie

I know. But yes it is better than nothing. And she talked to me a lot about diet and fibre and stuff as well, because they didn't want me to be constipated in any way, so that was helpful. And every morning now, I have, like, flax seeds on my cereal and stuff, which really helps.

Helen

Me too!

Katie

Top tip. And I basically begged her - she told me the next physical in person appointment was, like, six weeks away. And by this point, I think it was Lucas, probably about ten weeks, which I know is no time at all. But I was like, please. I was like, I just really, really want to know. I was like, I want to know what's happening down there and if everything's okay. But I also want to really crack on with these pelvic floor exercises. And I put the phone down and she rang me back within, like, 15 minutes and said she'd had a cancellation for, like, five days later. And I was like, yeah, I'll be there. I was like, I will sort childcare no matter what. So I went to my first appointment, and I think they grade you, don't they...I don't know if you've ever been graded.

Helen

Yeah pelvic floor strength, right? I don't quite know the system but there is one.

Katie

Yeah. So I think she graded me like a two out of five or something. I was like, oh, okay, that's not very good is it. But she was like, the good thing is you are contracting, but we just need to work on your strength. And she really encouraged me to try running.

Helen

That's amazing.

Katie

Yeah, she really encouraged me, like, Couch to 5K, she was like, you need to start really slowly. So a couple of days later, I did the first session, I think, of the couch to 5K, which was eight by one minute.

Helen

It's like walk for 30 seconds, run for something...it's barely any running, is it? But I bet that felt amazing?

Katie

It did, yeah. My mum walked with Lucas in the Pram, and I just did, like, the 1 minute and then walked back to them. And it just felt a bit like, this is me. This is what I wanted. And it was just like, oh, I can't wait for this.

I was also scared, though. I didn't want my organs to fall out. I was very wary of that. And then the next was it the same day? I think it might have been. I had to drive and collect something from the shops. And so my mum was at home with Lucas and I was in the car coming back, and someone drove into the back of me.

So I thought my running journey was just about to start, and I ended up with whiplash. And I was, like, really genuinely hurt. And I was like but I was like, Maybe this is the sign? So I had to leave it before I tried again.

So it was a very slow start, getting back to running, and it was very different to how I'd imagined - six weeks, like, oh, let's all bounce back to pre baby and that. And it was very different. And I think it's probably about four months, really, by the time I ended up restarting the couch to 5K. And it wasn't without stress incontinence. I was okay on the 1 minute. And then if there was a very slight change in terrain, I was like, what's this? I was like, downhill, uphill something. It would start creeping, rearing its ugly head, and it would really knock my confidence when that happened as well.

So, because it was the NHS physio, I ended up going private just so I could be seen kind of in between because I very much like, I need that feedback of like, I'm doing things right and I just like that pat on the back of, like, you are doing it right, keep going.

Helen

To get the emotional support understands, right?

Katie

Yeah. And Jackie, she actually works for the Women's now, but she works privately as well. She was really helpful and really empathetic with the situation and why I really wanted to get back.

Helen

Who's this Jackie? We should give her a full name shout out

Katie

Jackie Robertson. She now works, as I say, at the Women's, but she works privately where I saw her, so, yeah, no, she was really good. I felt like I'd gone to therapy after I'd seen her because you're just talking and getting things off your chest and she just understood how good running is for you mentally as well. So she gave me some tips on doing like body checks. She was like, it sounds as though your pelvic floor is working and can work when you running, but it's probably a little bit of tension, a bit of stress. She was like, when you're tense, then she was like, your pelvic floor is a muscle and that can lead to stress incontinence as well. So if I was going out running, I'd do a little kind of body scan, I think she called it. I'd try and make sure that there was no tension in my arms, my neck, that kind of thing. So that was a really good tip.

Helen

It's so interesting, that side of things, isn't it? Because I think generally... none of us have a great knowledge of any of this stuff, but the general sense is, oh, it's weak, your pelvic floor is weak, that's why you're leaking. But then there's this whole other side of things where your pelvic floor can be overly tight and then just kind of gets too tired and gives up and then you leak at that end of the scale as well. So she obviously clocked that with you. It sounds like it made a difference.

Katie

Yeah, it definitely did. And I think just knowing that if it started happening, there was something that I could do about it, rather than just think, oh, this is going to get worse and worse and worse over the course of the run. Or maybe I need to turn back. There was something I could do to try and help me relax and kind of continue with the run. And to be honest, it was definitely something that worked for me.

Helen

I remember seeing one of your...so you started an Instagram account @mummytolondonmarathon. And I remember seeing one of your posts saying, like, I can't even do a 5K Park run or something without leaking. How am I ever going to be able to run this marathon? Did you always believe you would get there?

Katie

To be honest, no. It was Jackie that encouraged me. She told me about Sophie Power. I think she's been on the podcast, hasn't she? She told me she was like, follow Sophie. She was like, she is such an inspiration. And I started following her and then I was like, Maybe I should make my own instagram.

And I think I mentioned in our previous chat that no one actually knows about this Instagram, which I'm probably part of this taboo issue, because I've never really spoken about many of these things before. I think if it maybe hadn't been for COVID, maybe it would have came out a bit more natural. But six months down the line, when you have to catch up with friends, it just didn't feel as pertinent to be explaining in depth.

Helen

It's quite a big one to bust out in the middle of a conversation.

Katie

Yeah it is

Helen

There's, being open and then there's like, yeah, how do you start that conversation?

Katie

But, yeah, I didn't always believe that I would get there. As I say, thankfully, the marathon was postponed by another six months, which definitely helped me. And there was moments of doubt and one of my physios at the Women's left, and so I was put in touch with Faye. She was going to be my new physio. Faye is a Pilates instructor and when I met her, I just felt like I just felt like she got it. And all the exercises that she gave me, it wasn't just about my squeezes, it was all to do with your core and everything and your breathing. And I was like I felt like I actually left the hospital and went straight to the gym to do a workout with these exercises. And that just felt like, this is what I want to be doing. I don't want to be thinking, I need to sit on the couch and do my squeezes. And she was like, and this is what's going to help. And so I'd see Faye at the Women's and then I'd go to her pilates classes and I still go to them. Now, that was a game changer, I think, for me.

Helen

And I love this and I wish more people could know about it. Because you can get so far by doing your pelvic floor exercises, under guidance, if you're doing them properly. But, like, if if you want to get to actually doing, you know, back to doing some serious kind of exercise, which was your thing before and you wanted to get back to it again, that's not going to get you there, is it?

Katie

You need to be doing the functional exercises that are happening when you're running or walking or jumping on a trampoline.

Helen

So you just threw everything at it after that. Then you like, physio, left, right and centre, Pilates, gym, running.

Katie

And to be honest, I've always been gym, running, so it was a bit like, if I'm going to get back to that, this is where I really need to put the work in.

Helen

Tell me about the London marathon day then? What was that like?

Katie

Well, I was just chuffed to be there, so I got the tube and met some friends who lived down there and they kindly let me go for a wee in their house before I went to the start line.

Katie

And I would say I probably was a little bit conscious of my water intake because I was thinking, how is this going to go? And the toilet queues were huge and I was just so chuffed I didn't have my phone with me, I just wanted to enjoy it and I was just, like, really hopeful I was going to see Mark and my parents and Lucas on the way around and it was just, you know what, it was like a carnival.

I feel like a really crazy runner saying that, like one of those people that's addicted to running and I'm not like that. I've totally fell off the wagon. I've totally fell off the wagon since then.

But, yeah, it was 100%, like - the music bands on, people singing and everyone was shouting my name, I felt famous. I was like, how do I know these people? They're all shouting Katie. It was honestly amazing. I can't really bottle that feeling and I don't think I'd be able to top it if I ever did another one. I'm just really proud, like.

Helen

You should be.

Katie

Thank you.

Helen

And how did your pelvic floor go on?

Katie

Absolutely fine. No issues the whole way around. I couldn't believe it. And I think probably because I wasn't thinking about it, I just having... in the moment had such a great day and enjoyed 90% of it.

There was a little point at mile 16, where I was like, this is really hard and I've still got another 10 miles, but wow. But, yeah, pelvic floor was really good. I cannot complain. So I was really glad I put the work in and felt confident going in, if you know what I mean.

Helen

Yeah. Amazing. How are you now? Is the question really like, how have you been since the marathon? What's your regime looking like?

Katie

I've definitely slacked off a little bit. I'm not running as frequently. I have been going back to the running club, but I haven't been for a few weeks. I'm planning on getting back to pilates - when I suffer with the stress incontinence. It's more like if I've got a cough continually and I've had it for a couple of days, I do suffer then. It's not horrendous, but I know as soon as that happens, I'm like, right, get back on these squeezes. You need it consistently...it's a lifelong thing, isn't it? It's never going away, I'm afraid. So if I slack off, then I will know about it.

Helen

But this is the thing, isn't it? Like, knowledge is power. And you know now where you can go for help, what you need to do to get back on track. It doesn't need to weigh down on you like this catastrophic, ongoing, life changing injury.

Katie

Yeah. And I think the physio described it to me as like a toolbox and they wanted to put lots of tools in my toolbox so that when I left that I could continue and I could reach back into the toolbox whenever I needed to. And I was like, that's a really good analogy.

Helen

You've had such good care, haven't you? You don't hear this from everyone.

Katie

And that's where I feel really privileged. The Women's has been yeah, amazing.

Helen

Do you have any sort of final thoughts? I always think about the women who are just listening, who've just had a baby or just developed pelvic floor problems and are thinking like, this is it, game over. I'm just never going to be me again.

Katie

I think the one thing to take away for me would be just time. You've just got to give it time. And everyone is always in such a rush to bounce back and it is the long haul with something like this, time is the biggest healer.

Helen

Aw thank you. You are so right. Although I would point out that you have just gone from having a baby to running a marathon in under two years. Talk about taking your time.

Katie

I know I did try and take my own advice, but it was difficult.

Helen

It does sound like you were very sensible and methodical and took a step back when you needed to, so I'll probably let you off.

Katie

Thanks.

Helen

Massive thanks to Katie Nicholson for sharing that. You can find her on Instagram @mummytolondonmarathon. The hospital she was talking about was Liverpool Women's Hospital. I'll put more details on the show notes. Neither she nor I are medical professionals, so please don't take anything you heard as medical advice.

The book. The book is called Why Mums Don't Jump: Ending the Pelvic Floor Taboo. And it's available to buy now, which is absolutely wild. If you read it and you like it, please do leave a review because the algorithms apparently like that. And as ever, get in touch, tell me what you think and spread the word. You've been listening to Why Mums Don't Jump with me, Helen Ledwick. You can find me on socials @whymumsdontjump or online at whymumsdontjump.com. See you next week.