Ending the Pelvic Floor Taboo, with Dr Catherine Blackledge - Episode Transcript

Helen

Hi, I'm Helen, and this is Why Mums Don't Jump, busting taboos about leaks and lumps after childbirth. All the stuff that happens to your pelvic floor that no one ever talks about. Incontinence, prolapse, pelvic pain problems that affect millions of women, 1 in 3. I'm one of them.

I have a prolapse, my pelvic organs fell out of place after the birth of my second child. And if you had told me back then that I would be speaking about this stuff out loud, I would have told you to give your head a wobble.

Hi, welcome back. I hope you're well.

This is an absolutely fascinating episode, totally different to anything we've done before, but I'm going to tell you about it in just a minute. But first, lots of you have been asking about the cube pessary.

So, this is the thing I've had for a couple of weeks, and here's where I'm at with it. I can't get it to sit comfortably. It seems to fall out of place, so that I can feel it a little bit, so I'm wondering if it's too small. However, I'm in touch with Tracey, the physio who fitted it and she's thinking it could well be because well, basically because my pelvic floor is not up to the task, yet. So, I'm doing the pelvic floor exercises that she's given me and we'll see how it goes. And there is an option to size up, that's a thing that could happen. And that may well be where we end up. But, yeah, it's a process, it's not a quick fix. I'm not giving up. I'll keep you posted.

Today's episode is sponsored by Modibodi, the go to brand for any of life's leaks. There's a range of products, not just for periods, but for bladder leaks, postpartum bleeding and leaky boobs, as well as reusable nappies for babies. Helping to support you through different stages of life. And the new ultra range is the most absorbent yet. It can hold 250 millilitres of liquid. No pads, no disposables, just undies. As you know, I've been using Modibodi for periods for three years now and I haven't looked back. I've also bought a rather nice swimsuit that gave me peace of mind on holiday. So, if you fancy trying Modibodi, you could use the code WMDJ15 (that’s one, five) for 15% off your first order; excluding sale items, bundles, gift cards and Maxi-24 hours. Thank you to Modibodi for that.

Today's episode then.

I don't have to tell you about the embarrassment that comes with pelvic floor problems. The level of shame and secrecy, stigma and taboo is off the scale. But have you ever wondered, why we're so embarrassed? Where does it come from? What difference would it make if it just wasn't there? Dr. Catherine Blackledge has some thoughts on this. Her background is as a scientist and a journalist. She's a sex and fertility education advocate. And in 2003 she published a book called ‘The Story of V’.

Catherine

And I wrote it to celebrate everything about the vagina. I originally had the idea when I was working as a science journalist, and I was covering Viagra, that had just been launched. And also we'd first heard from the Australian scientist Helen O'Connell, that the clitoris was far larger than previously imagined.

And I remember just thinking, well, what else don't we know about the vagina? And also I was just irritated about everything...Viagra was all about male sexual pleasure. There was nothing about the female there. So I thought, yeah, I'll see what I can find out.

And I mean, writing the book has totally changed my life personally and professionally, because I was just one so shocked about how little was known about the vagina. And when I say vagina, I'm using vagina as a catch-all term for everything, and I was really shocked about how little we knew from a scientific perspective. But then I also discovered so many wonderful stories about the vagina and female genitalia, and that really surprised me. That this massive treasure trove of female history wasn't known. It was being lost. So I gathered all this information together in a book which I hope would fascinate women and also help them to feel better about themselves.

And I've had so many women come to me and say my book saved their lives. So that's an absolutely wonderful thing to be able to do, and yeah, and the book was reissued two years ago as ‘Raising the Skirt, The Unsung Power of the Vagina’. And I mean, you know I can see so much has changed in those 20 years, but also there's a long, long way to go.

One of the things that I think has changed is that when I originally got a book deal for my book, I wasn't allowed to call my book Vagina. That's what I wanted to call it. I've, I've always felt like vagina was a really regal word. You know, you think of Regina vagina. And I was so shocked when they said in the publishing meeting, no, you absolutely can't use the word vagina. Some men in the room, they couldn't even say the word. So if we can't say the word, then it's not going to work as a book title. And I was a first time author. I wish I'd stood my ground and called it vagina. But, I settled with them on ‘The story of V’.

Helen

It's so difficult, isn't it? You're not in charge in that situation. You're relying on them to publish the book. You have to go along with it in some ways, I suppose you were in that world, and you were so used to using that language and talking about anatomical terms and stuff, but the rest of the world definitely wasn't there then. I don't think we're there now, so in a way it’s not that surprising.

Catherine

No, no and we’re not there now.  I mean one difference is that we now have books that are called vagina and have the word vagina in the title. And so that has changed within the publishing world. But sadly, I don't think there's been much change within the normal world, if you want to call it that.

You know, there's a research that shows from The Eve Appeal charity, the Eve Appeal, that one in five parents don't use any word at all for the vagina. I think it's just 1% use the word vulva in front of their children. A third of parents think that using either vagina or vulva is inappropriate for girls under eleven. And it's like, oh my goodness, we have a massive problem here. And you think that there's over a million words in the English language, and yet we don't seem to have one that is socially acceptable to use for female genitalia.

And I would argue that that's the most important part of human anatomy. That's where we're created, gestated, new life comes into the world, and yet there isn't that one word that we feel comfortable using. And I think that there are different layers of shame that get built up around female genitalia. And one of those layers is related to language, the lack of language that we're comfortable with.

Helen

And I was one of those people as well. A  couple of years ago, before I started out on this journey, if you like. Before I started making the podcast, the first episode of the podcast, I just say fanny throughout. I couldn't bring myself to say vagina or vulva, and if I'm honest, it's only in the last, I don't know, 5 / 10 years I even knew what a vulva was. And I consider myself, you know, a  well educated, sensible, sort of a woman, but I just couldn’t.  I was too embarrassed about it and I didn't really, if I'm honest, see the need. I didn't understand why it was important that we do use the right language and stuff, but it really is isn’t it?

Catherine

Yeah,yeah, it absolutely is. I mean, what did your parents, what word did your parents use for you?

Helen

Oh! Oh no! Oh! We used botty.

Catherine

Oh Yeah.

Helen

Have you come across that one before? I’m going red now.

Catherine

I have yeah, yeah. But they would have chosen that because that was what they felt most comfortable with.

Helen

Yeah

Catherine

And you know there are all these different words like, you know, fanny, foofoo, front bottom, that I presume parents use in a bid to take away their own embarrassment. But I don't think it does that. And I think children, they pick up on things so easily. And if you don't use any word at all, that sends an incredible message to children that what's between your legs for girls is something disturbing. And you know, I think about it like, is what's between our legs so terrifying and terrible that like Lord Voldemort, it cannot be named. And I think that children hear that, they hear what isn't spoken and it does affect them.

And I mean,  I guess I was lucky. My mum said I had a vagina. There certainly wasn't any vulva or clitoris or any naming of any other bits, but she told me I had a vagina. I’ve got two brothers and two sisters. We had vaginas, they had penises. So, I don't remember any sense of awkwardness about that. So, I'm really grateful to my parents for being so matter of fact about it. But that certainly doesn't mean that I grew up comfortable saying the word vagina. That's definitely not the case. And it was certainly a hurdle I did have to overcome. I remember when I started writing the book, I'd go to the British Library and I'd be getting all these strange papers out with strange titles, and I did blush. I lost count of how many times when I said, well, yes, that's the paper about the vagina, or whatever, but the more you talk about it, the more it just becomes natural.

Helen

So true.

And then that does two things in a way. When we use the right words, we stop giving our children the impression that it is this shameful, secret, dark place that shouldn't be mentioned, like Lord Voldemort, like you say. And also, it empowers them to understand their anatomy, right? So if they do go to the doctor’s and they've got pain or whatever in different parts of their female anatomy, at least they can use the right words to describe where it is. And that could actually be life saving, can't it?

Catherine

It absolutely can, you know. And women do have so many problems with their sexual health, and part of that is related to the shame that people feel, not being able to go to the doctor and talk about what is happening.

And I can say that from personal experience. I contracted chlamydia when I was well, well I don't know when. But sometime between 18 and 21. There was some symptoms, but I didn't know it was chlamydia. I didn't go to the doctor. That's shame that stopped me from going and as a result, my fallopian tubes were so damaged that I'm infertile. I'm very lucky that I was able to have IVF and it finally worked. And I now have a daughter. But, you know, that shame caused so much pain, many years of pain, of infertility. I was told I was infertile just days before my 21st birthday, which you know, is just as you're starting on your adult life. It was like aggh! There's this problem.

So, I think that factored into me writing a book about the vagina. I didn't know it at the time. You do something and you don't quite understand your reasons for it.

But since my daughter was old enough to know the different parts of her body, she knows she has a clitoris, she has a vulva, a vagina. She knows all these parts of her body.  And, she doesn't appear to be ashamed or embarrassed about them at all. In fact, she had her first sex education lesson at school. This a primary school, they have that in year six. And she came home afterwards and she said, Mum, I had to correct my teacher because he'd said the clitoris was the size of a pea. And she said, I put my hand up and I told him, no, it's much bigger than that.

Helen

Yess! That is a proud mum moment, that is, isn’t it.

Catherine

Oh! I was so, so proud. And she got star of the week for her contribution to sex education. So, the change can come, you know, if parents can get over their own embarrassment. And I'm not saying it's easy. It absolutely isn't. But if we want to start to make change, start to help girls not feel ashamed or embarrassed about their vagina, about their genitalia, then, yeah, parents have got to step in and use the correct words.

And I know there's a big discussion about whether you say vulva or vagina. And I think it's great if you teach your girls that, yep, vagina, the inner muscular tube, vulva, everything on the outside. Though I should say, years ago, vulva did not mean that. Vulva was just kind of meant the folds, the doors. So, if a woman was standing up naked, you wouldn't actually see her vulva. That's the mons pubis that you see. Vulva was just a very small part of the anatomy, but it's become the catchall term that we use. I still think vagina is a really appropriate catchall term for everything. Some people talk about, well, vagina just means if you go down to the etymology of it, it just means the sheath. So, that's not a very positive feminist word to be using.

Helen

No, we don't really just want to be reduced to a hole or a cover for something else.

Catherine

Yeah, yeah. And valva the etymology...vulva is from valva for doors. But when I was researching my book, I did discover some words that are powerful for female genitalia. I mean, there are so many that are steeped in shame. Like pudendum literally means that it comes from pudere - to be ashamed.

Helen

Yeah, I read that a while ago. It was a head in hand moment. I was like, okay, we've got the pudendum comes from shame, vagina is the sheath. And I was like oh!

Catherine

It was like, where are the positive words? I know that's about all different languages. Like, in German, the labia are called the schamlippen, so the shame lips. And that's quite a few parts of the anatomy, or sham, whatever. So it literally is steeped in shame.

Helen

It's just no wonder, is it? That we feel like we do.

Catherine

No.

Helen

And this is why I really wanted to talk to you about it. Because obviously, a lot of the work that I do, we talk about pelvic floor problems and prolapse incontinence, pelvic pain, a lot of birth injuries and things that can happen after childbirth. And then live with it in silence, without talking about it to other people, which adds this whole layer of difficulty to it and makes you feel so isolated and so alone, unable to share those problems.

And it's all to do with the shame and the stigma and the embarrassment around it. And in the very first episode, I remember I was speaking to my best friend; explaining what had happened to me because I needed someone I could trust and I could sort of relate to. And she asked me, but why is it so embarrassing? Because our kids are not embarrassed, not until we teach them to be as we've just talked about. So where does that embarrassment come from? Why did we start calling our gynaecological regions by words that mean shame and sheath? What did you find out about the history of all that?

Catherine

Well, the first thing I'd say is that it hasn't always been like that. I did discover these positive, powerful words. One of them is verenda, and that's the Latin version of a Greek word, Ideon. And they both mean the parts that inspire or respect or reverence.

I mean, that's wonderful. But this is a place to be inspired by. This is a place to be revered and respected. And I think we should bring back verenda, because verenda is the whole thing. It's vulva, it's vagina, it's everything uterus, ovaries.

So, there was a time when female genitalia were respected, and that, I think, goes hand in hand with going back thousands of years, and when women were considered magical, amazing creatures who brought new life into the world, seemingly without any contribution from anybody else, because there's nine months between sex and a baby being born. And so for millennia, it was believed that women did this all by themselves.

And you can look at all the marvellous artwork from thousands of years ago. In fact, there's a period of 40,000 years in history where you have all these wonderful, the Venus of Willendorf, all those amazing sculptures, where you've got beautiful milk giving breasts, rounded tummies, beautifully carved vulvas. The male form wasn't even touched. There isn't anything out there. So, you know the female form was really respected.

And there is a shift when patriarchy as we know it starts, when...well they believe that we came together, living in smaller communities and controlling resources became more important. And females are an important resource because we give birth. And so controlling females and their sexuality and their resources became important, then that's where patriarchy comes from.

In terms of where the shame comes from. Religion has a lot to answer for, western religions. You can see that for a long time it was believed that female orgasm was necessary for conception to occur. And during that time, medical manuals will talk about how to sexually stimulate women. So, female sexual pleasure was considered important because it was needed for conception to occur.

Helen

Yeah right, makes sense.

Catherine

So, in a way, kind of like our sexuality, our pleasure was sanctioned then, even by the church, but we still weren't happy about it. But as long as sex was within marriage, that's absolutely fine.

But then in the 1800s, they realised, in the 1770s, that female orgasm wasn't necessary for conception to occur. And then there's a massive shift then. There was so much knowledge about the clitoris before then. And then it literally shrinks from anatomy books and textbooks. It disappears to the point where, at the end of 1999, when I got the idea for the book, we thought you know,  it's just a pea.

And the west, the Christian church in the west, very sex negative. And even more so around female sexual pleasure. We were told to be ashamed. Female sexuality was something to be ashamed of. And that's why the shame is in the root of words for female genitalia.

But if you look to the east, it's not quite like that. They had a much more positive and reverential attitude towards sex and towards female sexual pleasure. And you have the word for vagina is the heavenly gate, which is lovely, or pubic hair - black rose. So these are really positive words. And if you were told you had a heavenly gate and your pubic hair is your black rose, that's really imbuing your child, the next generation with a real sense of positivity.

So, yeah, language is so important, but we have to, in a way, escape our culture to get it right. We can get there, I think.

I think there's another layer of shame that comes in for girls, and it's not to do with language, it's to do with a personal awakening, because I think that for everybody who's born female, we all share a moment. And it's that moment when we realise that actually, we're treated as second class citizens, we're not valued as much in the world. And that moment will come at a different point for different people. But it happens.

And I know I was at primary school when I realised that ahh! I'm treated differently from my brothers. They got paid and didn't have to do any work. I had to work to get the money. They got loads more freedoms that I did. They were allowed bikes, I wasn't allowed a bike. And in my family, it's the two girls that come first and two boys and another girl. And they were getting bikes and they were younger than us.

And I think this moment when you realise that you are treated differently and it does come at a young age, nobody explains why that is and you have to try and figure it out for yourself. And in my head, I certainly felt, well, what's the difference? I can only say that I've got a vagina and they've got a penis. And I think something gets put on the vagina. That lack of understanding, those negative feelings. We're not told to like our vaginas. Perhaps they're the reason we think that that's why we're treated in a negative way.

Helen

Yeah, and even if that's not a conscious thing, I suppose, then you sort of step out into society as an adult and you see the differences that are still there in the pay gap and all the rest of it. That only would reinforce those feelings, wouldn't it?

Catherine

Yeah, yeah.

Helen

Tell me about ‘Raising the Skirt’, because I kind of love this. This is in the olden days when we didn't have all these feelings.

Catherine

Yes. Yeah. I love ‘Raising the Skirt’, too. And ‘Raising the Skirt’ stories are incredible. And it's why I had to call the latest edition of my book ‘Raising the Skirt’. One way we can make change, I believe and push aside all this shame, is to teach our children, our girls ‘Raising the Skirt’ stories.

One of the most amazing things I came across in writing the book was the ‘Raising the Skirt’ stories. So many of them. Crossing millennia, crossing cultures, in mythology, in art, in folklore, in history. They all talk about the incredible power of the vagina, that if a woman deliberately raises her skirt to reveal her vulva, she can cause an array of extraordinary things happen.

So, she can raise her skirt and she can control the elements. You had Spanish women, they used to go and stand at the harbour's edge, on the cliff's edge before their husbands put out to sea, and they would raise their skirts and they would say the sea should be calm. And so they were protecting the men, they were protecting their livelihood. They were making the sea calm down so that the men would be okay.

You have wonderful stories about calming whirlwinds or causing rain to happen. We are so powerful that we can also avert evil. So raising the skirt can cause the devil to disappear. There's a wonderful story about the devil attacking a village repeatedly, but a young woman goes out and raises her skirt and the devil runs away.

Russian folklore talks about if a bear appears out of the woods, a woman raises her skirt and the bear will disappear. Those stories are across cultures, across time, and they're also about fertility as well. Women will go out into the fields and say they'd raise the skirt and say to the crops, please grow as high as my skirts are now. And I think they're so important, these stories. They tell of a different time, and.

Helen

Indeed, it feels like a whole, like, societally sanctioned act of power and the magic, and I just think it's just so alien. It's so far from where we are now. But, yeah, I've never heard those stories before. And yeah, I love that you found them.

Catherine

Yeah, yeah. And and I feel like that that's one of the things I'm most proud of in writing the book. Before that, the word wasn't known. It's called anásurma or anasyrma. It now has its own Wikipedia entry. And in the 20 years since I gathered all these stories of of raising the skirt, it's, it's started making a comeback. People have read my book and they're now using it to protest.

Helen

Oh, wow!

Catherine

So in Poland, they used it to protest, raising the skirt. They have very strict abortion laws in Poland, they are protesting against that. In Italy, they've used it to protest. In California on the Women's March, a wonderful artist, she’d drawn this amazing picture of anasyrma, inspired by my book. And they carried that around at the Women's March. So it's making a comeback. I don't know if you saw the Black Lives Matter protests in Portland, Oregon. One woman walked out completely naked in front of the police with guns, and she literally sat in the ground, spread her legs and showed her womanhood. Yeah, it's a really potent gesture. Really proud, potent gesture. And I think if you can tell girls, you have the most amazing part in your body, it's so powerful, it's so potent. It's absolutely deserving of respect. We can shift things so that we'll all happily say, vagina vulva, verenda and you know, be happy with it.

Helen

I'm not saying strip off and join your nearest protest. I won't be doing that. But I love the idea that we can make baby steps towards lifting the embarrassment and taboo, because, really, what purpose does it serve? It just makes us feel bad. And I think that if you can share your concerns, if you can tell your partner, tell your boss, it would make such a difference to how you feel. So it's food for thought.

And Catherine's book is now published as ‘Raising the Skirt the Unsung Power of the Vagina’. You can find her online at catherineblackledge.com.

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Bye for now.