Carina White - Episode Transcript

Helen

Hi, I'm Helen, and this is Why Mums Don't Jump, busting taboos about leaks and lumps after childbirth. All the stuff that happens to your pelvic floor that no one ever talks about, incontinence, prolapse, pelvic pain; problems that affect millions of women, 1 in 3. I'm one of them.

I have a prolapse, my pelvic organs fell out of place after the birth of my second child. And if you had told me back then that I would be speaking about this stuff out loud, I would have told you to give your head a wobble.

We're back, and I am so happy to be able to bring you another series. And on International Women's Day no less, you know the deal. We'll have brave and badass women sharing their experiences of pelvic floor problems, as well as expert voices to help us on the right track.

And these conversations, they do make a difference. I'm still getting messages all the time from women who have struggled to find good information and supports, who are isolated because of the stigma that surrounds these conditions. So if that's you, you are not alone. You have found your people. And if you haven't heard the pod before, then welcome.

I would really recommend going back and listening from the start, where, amongst other things, you'll hear me wanging on about my prolapse and how I've come to terms with it. On that front, everything is ticking over just fine at the moment. I'm still in a sort of on off relationship with pelvic floor exercises. Not because I want to be, just because I just keep forgetting to do it. I'm still mostly running a couple of times a week in the local park. I'm doing a bit of pilates, and I'm waiting for a pest reappointment and waiting and waiting. So it's there. The prolapse is there, but it doesn't rule my life in the way that perhaps it sort of once did. So there is hope.

Today's episode, I am delighted to say, is sponsored by Modibodi, the original period and leak proof underwear. I came across them a couple of years ago because a side effect of my prolapse is that I can't wear tampons or cups anymore. I'm sure some of you can relate to that. They just don't stay in. And then I heard about period pants, and I haven't looked back. Modibodi are my absolute go to. They come in a range of different absorbencies, a ton of different colours and shapes, and because they're reusable, they're better for the planet.

I recently bought myself a Modibodi swimsuit, which I know sounds crazy, but I tried it on holiday and it was great. And there's even a maternity and postpartum range, which includes leak proof bras and cammies. So if you fancy trying Modibodi for periods or for leaks, you can use the discount code WMDJ 15 to get yourself 15% off. Thanks to Modibodi for sponsoring today's episode.

Let's get into it.

Carina White is a broadcaster, a cultural commentator. She's also one of the hosts of the podcast Black Mums Up Front, which, if you haven't heard it, is brilliant. It's just loads of honest and sometimes hilarious chat about motherhood and life and they don't shy away from difficult subjects. In one of the episodes, I heard Karina speak about how she's been dealing with incontinence for years. You know, me, I tracked her down.

So, you're having all this great chat and then you just sort of piped up that actually incontinence has been a thing for you. Were you planning on bringing it up at that point? Have you mentioned that before?

Carina

No, literally, we just end up talking. Like, it's so weird because people say, oh like, do you have like, a script or a plan about what you're going to talk about? It's like, nah. Just sometimes something might come to our mind and be like, oh, I was just going to say that. And sometimes it's like, oh, I can't believe I said that. But I think because of kind of what we're about and we want to keep conversations going and have those really important conversations that sometimes you don't want to necessarily have for whatever reason. It's really important to kind of be the one that kickstarts that conversation. So, yeah, no, it wasn't planned at all. But, yeah, that's just typical, us, really.

Helen

That's exactly what it is. And then anytime I hear that happen, I'm just like, yesss, I need to speak to that person. So thank you so much for doing that. I really appreciate it.

Carina

No, that's fine, no problem at all.

Helen

Going right back to the beginning with it all. This started after your daughter was born? Immediately after, right. Tell me a bit about what happened.

Carina

Yeah, so I had my daughter and I was really lucky because she came so quickly. I didn't have any pain relief, anything. So, I was like, hello? Like, I need my pain relief. Like, please give me gas and air, something. They're like, oh, no, you're too far along. It's just time to push now. And I'm like, what?

But, yeah, I didn't have any pain relief and she came so quickly, but I did tear. So I had, I think they call them second degree tears. So it was like, I didn't want to use the toilet. Like, I was literally, like, sat on the toilet going wee and like pouring water down there to try and soothe the burn and running a bath and sitting in it.

And, I noticed that I couldn't hold the wee, so I didn't want to go toilet because I knew it was going to hurt, but I couldn't hold it either. Like, I would feel it starting to trickle out and I was like, what? And I think, that was probably the first time that I noticed that, actually, yeah,like I've got a really weak bladder now, like, I can't hold my wee in anymore.

And as the years have gone on, it's got, like, progressively worse and probably more and more and more and more and more embarrassing as well. And it's like a running joke now amongst my friends, like, when we go out partying or something like that, they're like Carina, literally, I'm like a child still. Like, it’s Carina “have you used the toilet?” Before we leave the house “Have you used the toilet?”

And it's like having to, it kinda of umm, as much as I laugh about it, it does really affect kind of my social wellbeing. Because if we're going out on a night out, right, everyone will be in the taxi or in the car or whatever, drinking on the way. And I have to calculate in my mind, how far is the journey, being in the car, because if I sit in the car and drink, I will not make it to the toilet, right? And I can't hold it or if we're like out and about.

Summer, I remember one time I was at my friend's house and her daughter was on the trampoline and jumping up and down. I'm such a big kid right Helen, a massive kid. So I was, like, right at my big age, like, past 35, was like, Right, I'm getting on the trampoline. And I went on and I did one jump, came back down. I was like, yep, no, not for me, because I can literally feel the wee coming out. I was like, yeah, guys, no, sorry, I've got to go inside. So, yeah, I definitely noticed it after having my daughter.

Helen

You were so young then, as well. I mean, about twelve years ago, you were, what, like early 20s or something?

Carina

Yeah, so I'm 36-37. Although, because we've been in the pandemic for two years, I keep saying to everyone, when this pandemic is over.

Helen

Oh, we don't count that, yeah rewind.

Carina

Yeah, we don’t count that. So technically, I'm approaching 35. That's my pre-pandemic age, and that's what I'm sticking to. So, yeah, I was, like, 25 when I had my daughter. Just turning, just turned 25, when I had my daughter. So, yeah, still quite relatively young.

And so to have to deal with that, it's kind of like, this is so irritating. And you know I've done all the pelvic floors. And everyone says, do the pelvic floor exercises you know,  tighten back up your muscles. And I'm like, guys, I've tried that. Like literally, I've tried that. And it's just so frustrating because people say, just tighten your muscles, do your pelvic floors, like that works for everyone. It doesn't work for everyone.

And I think, I have it quite extreme and it can take over your life and it can be quite demoralizing. It can be you know, umm I know it sounds dramatic, and I am a very dramatic person, but it is quite heart wrenching sometimes. There's been times where I've been out and it's like, right, I need to go to the toilet, and straight away I need to go and I can't hold it. And it just takes away from you being able to have fun when you're out and about.

So, I'm Jamaican, right? Going to Carnival is a big thing for me. I can't go to carnival anymore because in my mind I have to think aggh, when am I going to be able to use the toilet? I'm going to want to use the toilet. And I think I've been probably once or twice in the last ten years. And a big part of that is because I'm like, how am I going to use the toilet. Or going to a festival? I'm like, okay, if I go to a festival, I'm going to have to get, like, VIP tickets or something like that. So there's like not loads or not so many people needing to use the toilet, so I'm not going to have to queue up. So, it’s all of these things and yeah, it's so irritating. So, so irritating.

Helen

Carina, that doesn't sound dramatic at all. I think it is heart wrenching and like, wherever you are on on the spectrum, whether it's just like an occasional accident or something, like really debilitating, the fact that it's just ever present, it's just always there. You like, you say you have to, in some situations, just rethink your whole life around it, and that does matter. Like, if you love carnival and you're not going, that's massive like, that's, that's having a huge impact on your life, actually. And for twelve years as well, right?

Carina

Yeah, twelve years. Twelve years and counting. And, you know, it's it's so funny because I've been, like, researching. Because I go to the doctors about it and they give you the leaflets and tell you to do the pelvic floor exercises and then they tell you, okay, you've tried that, it's not working fine, go. And they give you the sheet with the measurements on it and you're meant to measure how much wee you're passing throughout the day and stuff like that.

Helen

Okay. The bladder diary.

Carina

Yeah, that's it. The bladder diary. So I've done all of that. And then I remember one year where I was working, I had private health insurance and so I got referred privately and they did like the ultrasound and everything. And I got given these tablets to try and take away that urge for when you want to use the toilet. And they didn't work at all. Tablets did not work at all. So I was like, okay, fine, that's not working. What next? And it kind of was like, well, we don't really have anything else. And I'm like, Well, I'm not going to live with this for, like, the rest of my life. This is ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous.

And so, I kind of left it for a while and then pre-pandemic, I said, look, this is ridiculous now. Like, I need to be referred to a specialist. So, I went back to my GP, they referred me. Then the pandemic happened, and it's only having, obviously we know what NHS services were like right at the beginning of the pandemic. So, it was me constantly chasing “Guys, has this referral gone through?” “Has this referral gone through?” Then the pandemic hit properly in March 2020. So we went through the whole of 2020. I kind of left it. So I was like, right, we're in a global pandemic, right? So I'll let you guys off.

So at the beginning of this year, I was, like, chasing my doctor again. Like, “What's happening with this referral?” “What's happening with this referral?” Got to the summer, chased them again. And it's only a couple of months ago that I got a letter through with the referrals, bearing in mind I went back to my GP in, like, Octoberish 2019. We're now in 2021. So, I finally got a referral letter from the hospital saying, yes, I've got an appointment in March 2022.

Helen

Okay, okay.

Carina

So, I’m like okay, we're getting somewhere. We're getting somewhere. After two and a half years, we're getting somewhere. So I was like, my God, I can't wait that long. That's like six, seven months. This is ridiculous. So I went back to kind of my private health insurance, which I've taken out separately, but because it was a pre-existing condition I can't be referred privately. So, I was like fine. So, I spoke to one of the private GPs, and I said to them “Look, I can't wait until March 2022. Like, this is ridiculous now.”

It's getting to a point where my bladder is so weak if I'm out on a... There was a time I was out on a night out, and I was like, oh, my God, I need to use the toilet, and it was just coming, and I was like, I've got to go home.

I was starting to feel so depressed that this whole kind of weak bladder and incontinence was, like, taking over my whole life. So, the private GP was like we don't normally give tablets without ..Because this is on the apps, the GP apps that you can have on your phone. And they're like, we don't normally prescribe without seeing the patient. So, I was like “Seriously this is taking over my life”. So they gave me some tablets and were like, you need to go and see your normal GP in four weeks, just in case it's causing like, urine retention or whatever.

Helen

Umm humm

Carina

We just need you to go and get checked out. The tablets haven't worked at all, so I've kind of just left that. I haven't been back to see my GP. But, I'm literally counting down the days to my hospital referral because I think the reason why it's so important for me to talk about it is because at first I was really embarrassed, like, super embarrassed about it. And then it became like a running joke amongst my friends.

But then my friends that have had kids, they're like, oh, my God, me too, me too, yeah, me too. Like, I can't hold that wee, when I need to go toilet, I need to go toilet. And I was like, wow, this is amazing because it's clearly something that a lot of mums or a lot of women who have been through childbirth, experience post childbirth, but no one's talking about it.

And actually, if it's happening to everyone or the majority of people, what is there to be embarrassed about right. Like, normally we're embarrassed about things that don't affect the majority, but if actually this is something that is affecting the majority, it's not really something that we should be embarrassed about, like it's something that actually we should talk about more, so people know that actually it's okay, like that's normal.

But also, I remember speaking to somebody about it and she was saying, yeah, no, it's not something that you should just have to live with. It's not something you should have to live with. And if you're doing your pelvic floor exercises and it's not working, go and see your GP. Like, that's not something that you should just have to deal with or should just become a part of your day to day life. And so, yeah, that's where we're at at the moment.

Helen

It is, it is like this though. You're absolutely right. And that's exactly my motivation for doing this as well, because I just think. So, I've got two children. I've got a daughter who's nearly nine and a son who's nearly seven.

And I think about my daughter in particular, if she grows up and goes on to be a mum, if that's a route that she goes down. I would hate for something like this to happen to her and for her to feel as isolated and confused and not knowing where to go for help. And this is just how it is now, and we have to all just put up with it. All of those feelings that so many people tell me about all the time, I don't want that for her.

We need to just start talking about this, because once you can do that, you just go, right, well, I'll just treat it like I would treat any other medical condition. I go to the doctor, we'll try this. If that doesn't work, we'll try something else. You know Physio is an option for a lot of people. When we spoke last time, that's not something that has even really been talked about with you.

Carina

No. no they haven't spoken to me about physio or anything. I think during my research, I saw that you can get like Botox injections in your bladder, which helps the bladder muscles. And I was like, okay, that's definitely something that I'm going to have to talk to my consultant when I do go to my referral. And I think when we spoke as well, you were saying about physio. So it's all of these things that you either find out from doing your own research or you find out from talking to other people about it, which you can then arm yourself with that knowledge and go into that appointment with your GP. Or if you've been referred to the hospital and say, well, actually, can we try these things as well? Because like I said, I tried the tablets previously, they didn't work and it kind of was like, okay, there's nothing else we can do. And it's like, no, actually there is stuff that you can do. But because I hadn't done my own research at that point or had this conversation, I wasn't aware of the other alternatives. But now that I am, I feel more empowered to actually really advocate for my own treatment and say, well, actually, we need to try XYZ before you say there's nothing else that can be done.

Helen

That's exactly it. So how are you feeling about it all right now then? So, you've got this appointment coming down the road in March, although that is a way away and there's so much uncertainty still. So, where are you at with it all?

Carina

I will be very disappointed if that appointment gets moved, like super disappointed. And I know that in the grand scheme of things, there are other more pressing priorities if it does get canceled for whatever reason. But I think at the moment, I'm still at that point where you know, I still have to use the toilet before I leave the house. Be wary about how much I drink when I'm out and about. It's all about pre-planning and I'm not the most organized person at all. So, I think that takes a lot. It's shown a lot of growth with me, actually, that I've been able to pre-plan my toilet breaks. But yeah, that's kind of where I'm at at the moment and kind of what I'm having to do to temporarily solve the problem or manage the problem until I get that referral. So, yeah.

Helen

I was thinking about your friends. Well, I know it must have been horrible for you being quite young and a mum and having these issues and sharing it with your friends and they're all kind of laughing and making a joke of it because that's what we do just to kind of get through things. But then that realization for them when they became mums and they were like, oh right, Carina, we get it now, but at least they had you. Like you'd already gone out there and spoken about it and I think that must have made quite a big difference for them.

Carina

Yeah, I think, it’s like I said, it's one of those things. The more that we talk about things and the more we talk about things that affect us as mums, as women, as individuals, it takes away those barriers, right, for people to start normalising the conversations and normalising the things that happen to us through the realm of childbirth. Or once we've had a child.

So, for a lot of my friends, just because of the way that we are and the nature of the way that we are as well, it's quite easy to have those conversations and to laugh about it and whatever. And they're also so understanding. I remember, I went out with one of my friends, and she literally was, like, bursting to use the toilet, right. She also had quite a bit to drink and she leaked a little bit before she got to the toilet. And literally we were all standing, like walking behind her and stuff like that to shadow her and whatever, and it was like, right, okay, you stay in the toilet, we're going to go and get your jacket so we can put your jacket over you. But actually, maybe before we do that, you stay in the toilet, take off your jeans, pass them over and we'll dry them on the dryer.

You know, we talk about kind of sisterhood and friendship and what it means. But when you look at things like that and I think back on things like that, I laugh. Not because it's a joke, but I laugh because we talk about sisterhood and we talk about friendship in the realms of supporting each other and being there for each other. But when you're a mum, that opens up a whole another world as to what it means to support your friends or to have that sisterhood and that village around you. And you know, we just do what's got to be done in those instances, and so yeah.

Helen

And that gives you so much strength, knowing that you're not alone and being part of that community and okay, they get it, they get it. We can work through this together.

Carina

Yeah, you understand, yeah, yeah.

Helen

I wonder, is there anything that would have helped you sooner, do you think? Because it's been such a long time.

Carina

I think just knowing that that was an issue, that that could be an issue. Like I said, everyone was just like, oh, weak bladder after childbirth, oh just do your pelvic floor exercises. So I was like, oh, maybe I'm not doing them right or maybe I'm not doing it enough because this isn't fixing the problem. So, I think just knowing early on that actually just doing your pelvic floor exercises doesn't fix it for some people. And it's okay to say, actually, I need to go to the doctors about this. It's not something that you have to live with. I think for a very long time, the narrative that was put to me was, you just have to put up with it. Put up or shut up. And that's not true, you don't have to live with it. There are treatments and things that can be done to help you manage it or to cure it, in a sense. So, yeah, I think just knowing early on that actually, it's okay not to be okay and that you can go to the doctors about it. Maybe I probably would have gone a lot earlier and a lot sooner than my daughter was eight, nine.

Helen

Yeah. Mind you don't have any time before then. You don't have time to think about anything. You normally put yourself to the bottom of the list, don't you? Like you’ve got to do everything else first.

Carina

It's true, so true, so true. But, yeah, I definitely think, if there's anybody listening and they’re thinking, actually, yeah, I'm going through the same thing, just go and see your GP. And don't let them tell you that there's nothing that can be done, because there's so many different things that can be done.

Helen

I could not have put it better myself. The hospital appointment Carina spoke about is happening this week, so fingers crossed for that. I really enjoyed that chat and I hope you did, too.

Black Mums Upfront is exactly how it's written on instagram @blackmumsupfront. As ever, none of this is intended as medical advice, so please do seek out your own support.

Next week, the M word menopause perimenopause. It's going to happen. So what does it mean for those of us with pelvic floor problems?

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Bye for now.