Pop Club 2 - Episode Transcript

Helen

Hi, I'm Helen, and this is Why Mums Don't Jump: busting taboos about leaks and lumps after childbirth. All the stuff that happens to your pelvic floor that no one ever talks about - incontinence, prolapse, pelvic pain. Problems that affect millions of women, one-in-three! I'm one of them. I have a prolapse. My pelvic organs fell out of place after the birth of my second child five years ago. And if you had told me then I'd be speaking about this stuff out loud, I’d have told you to give your head a wobble.

Hi, welcome back. What a great response to the last episode, which I'm saying has now totally, officially, properly made 'Vadgets' the collective noun for pelvic floor tech. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Fun times today, too. I've done a little catch up with my Pop Club. If you're new to the podcast, these are a couple of women who, like me, have prolapse and live in my local area, here in Manchester, in the UK, and we met through Instagram not long after I started all of this. We share all our ups and downs of pelvic floor dysfunction and we hit it off straight away. So in series one, we recorded one of our chats and it prompted a bit of a thing where other unofficial Pop Clubs started up in other parts of the UK and it's still happening. The details are on my blog and in the show notes, if you want to get involved, and they're just really fun and I thought it would be good to have a bit of a catch up. So we did.

And we touched on all kinds of things, from birth injury and the impact on your mental health to surgery and having another baby. So this is Jess and Skye - not their real names - being their usual raucous selves.

Jess

I love it - Pop Club, formed in Didsbury and now it's taken worldwide.

Helen

It's true.

Jess

These three women met for cake and coffee. Who knew where they'd be now, or where their vaginas would be? Let's find out.

Helen

Someone in New Zealand was on there this week asking for a buddy in New Zealand. How cool is that?

Skye

I love that. I think that's brilliant. It's really good. That's a really positive thing to have come out of all this, isn't it?

Helen

Yeah, definitely.

Jess

The only positive.

Helen

Oh here she goes.

Skye

Hang on, you've got some positive news to share.

Jess

Yeah. I'm confused. What have I shared before? Yes, I've had a baby.

Helen

Congratulations.

Skye

Congratulations.

Helen

That's amazing.

Skye

It is amazing.

Jess

I did it.

Skye

Where is he? I want to see.

Jess

He's in bed, you know.

Helen

You are joking. How old is he?

Jess

He's three months... Well, I stay in bed. I've I've started the new routine. The new routine is we have a bath, like they have a bath together, and then we go into my bed and we read two books while I'm feeding. And then I read the third book just with him.

Helen

How's big brother getting on?

Jess

Yeah, well, yeah, the big brother's okay. He found it difficult, let's say, in the beginning. Everyone's like, how's it going with baby? Like, fine. Baby's fine. That's a doddle. It's the toddler. The toddler. But no, he's doing okay as well. So yeah!

Helen

You look really well.

Jess

You always say this. I was just literally looking on this camera thinking I look haggard, but thank you.

Helen

That's what I said to Skye

Jess

You know what I was actually thinking as I joined late and I was looking at your cameras and stuff, and I was thinking, oh God, I look really old. And I was thinking, Helen looks really well. I was like, she'll have good lighting because she knows how to do it all.

Helen

Well it just goes to show, doesn't it? Because I thought exactly the opposite and I don't have good lighting, and all I'm seeing is wrinkles. Wrinkles. Anyway, we're all gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous on the outside, and on the inside.

Skye

Well, that's debatable.

Helen

So should we do a catch up then? Should we find out what's going on? So we'll start with big news then. The big news. The new baby.

Jess

New baby. Elective section.

Helen

Right, okay. Yeah, obviously I knew that, but let's talk about it a bit because yeah, for lords of women who have a prolapse, the idea of going on and having another baby is a massive thing...

Jess

Terrifying. Terrifying.

Helen

Was it for you?

Jess

Yes. Well, yeah, the thought of having another baby after my first was absolutely terrifying and I think I actually was in my head about that for two years. I feel like having a second child has...don't get me wrong, I still obsess a little bit about it, but nowhere near...because I was thinking, all the what ifs? All the what ifs. And then actually one day I just thought, yeah, what am I actually waiting for? All the what ifs? So I just thought, yeah, I'll do it. And here I am with a baby. Made it through.

And actually my symptoms were better during pregnancy than they've been for ages, which actually was a bit ...t was like brilliant, because I did loads of stuff and like just really long walks and stuff, whereas before I be like, not sure that's too far. Basically where I'm at now, again - can feel my prolapse. It's really annoying. Whereas, yeah, I was going for like five mile walks and didn't feel it. Like the first twelve weeks it was a bit bad, but I think that was hormonal. And then towards the end it wasn't...it was my back that really hurt. My back hurt. That was the problem.

Helen

I wonder what happens. Maybe things shift around.

Jess

Oh yeah, everything pulls up. So the baby like yeah, brings everything up. And then after obviously had the elective C section, which was fantastic, I can't tell you it was the best thing ever, particularly as it was nine pound eight. But not only that, it was just a dream. And the recovery...you know, like before, when I was going through the process and the consultant was like, oh, well, you can't lift your child, your toddler, recovery is really bad...thinking, are you listening to me? Like, I don't lift my toddler. And secondly, I'm still 'recovering' in inverted commas.

Helen

You had a really difficult first birth and you were injured from it. That's a very difficult recovery.

Jess

Exactly. Yeah. So then obviously had to get the big guns out and say, NICE guidelines, I can choose my birth.

Helen

That's quite interesting, though, because I'm surprised that you had to argue to have a section.

Jess

I did have to argue.

Helen

I argued the opposite. I had a section with my first, and I was so determined to have a vaginal birth second time around, and, yeah, they were really hesitant to let me do that. So I argued. You can't win, can you, I suppose.

Jess

You can't win. And the thing is, that childbirth is so unpredictable, you just don't know how it's going to go. And I was kind of worried about scarring and healing and that kind of thing, because I don't tend to heal that well. But it was fine. Didn't have an infection, was off painkillers after four days and then back...after two weeks, I was kind of back to normal.

And do you know what the weird thing is? Having a baby. Everyone says, oh, you kind of lose your identity a little bit. I don't know why I'm getting emotional now. I don't know why. But, yeah, because it's still raw, isn't it? You lose your identity as who you are, when you just are a mum, and then it kind of takes time to regain that, because all you are is a mum at that point, and it's all for the child. But I think when you then suffer a prolapse, you lose that physical side of yourself as well, and all the mental health stuff around that.

It's like you have a baby, but you substituted something for it. You lost who you were and you don't get that back. You lost it. And that's really hard to kind of get your head round. And I remember seeing loads of new mums and thinking, oh, that mum, like, she's just back to her normal self and I feel like a completely different person. And I still do feel like a different person. Like we went for a walk today and my oldest son was, like, running around and I can't really run around after him and I can't lift him up into the trees. And also, I think in my head, I was like a superwoman beforehand. I could have lifted him up a tree with one hand. I couldn't have done that at all.

Helen

Rose tinted glasses.

Jess

Yeah, exactly. I'm not the person I was. But the weird thing about having a section was I just went back to where I was before, and that's the weirdest, do you know what I mean? That's the weirdest thing. It's like, oh, this is what it's like to have a baby. You have a baby and then you're back to your normal self, and it's a really weird concept. And, like, having this baby, like, I'm happy and I'm like, oh, this is how I'm supposed to feel. Like, this is what it's supposed to be like. Not like all the turmoil that I went through before and, like, crying all the time and I think I've not cried once.

Helen

Oh, I'm so happy for you. That's that kind of healing birth that people talk about, isn't it?

Jess

Yeah. And the prolapse, I don't think it's any worse, but it is funny what I was saying. The baby like lifts everything up, and then after, like, a week, I'm like, oh, my God, this is brilliant. Like, it's got completely better. I was wondering if it was going to be like a deflatable balloon where it just slowly sort of sinks...which it did, but it's not worse. So, yeah, I absolutely had a very positive experience with an elective c-section.

Helen

Last time we spoke for the podcast, you had a pessary. You'd got a pessary. Did you wear that? It was really helping...?

Jess

I wore that through pregnancy. Yeah.

Helen

Because I'll be honest, I didn't even know if that was okay to wear through pregnancy. But it is?

Jess

Yeah, it was fine. There was a bit of a debate about when I could put it back in.

Helen

Yeah, okay because everything will be really...although, actually because you didn't have a vaginal birth..?

Jess

Yeah. Someone said, oh, yeah, you can put it straight back in. And then other people said, leave it six weeks, which I didn't really necessarily understand. Anyway I did put it back in before six weeks, but I've taken it out. I didn't feel like it was doing much, so I probably need to go and give them a call, see what the answer is.

But no, generally I'm doing okay. I would say if anyone is considering elective C-section out there is to make sure that they write you up a prescription for some Movicol or something like that on the ward, because the constipation is really bad from the drugs that you take or that they give you. So that's the only thing.

Helen

The struggle is real.

Jess

The struggle is real yeah.

Helen

Come on then, Skye. What's going on in your world?

Skye

Not a lot next to that

Helen

Hang on, let's recap. Recap. So I'm trying to remember, obviously, when we met four years ago no, how many years ago? Three, four years ago or something. You'd had surgery for your prolapse. What kind of surgery was it? Or is that too complicated?

Skye

It's a posterior repair of the vaginal wall. Where they kind of go in and strengthen it and things. But yeah, so that was when my son was about 18 months old I had the surgery, and he's nearly four now.

Helen

Nearly four! And that had kind of worked for the prolapse. But you had some other nerve pain and different things that were going on, right?

Skye

Yeah, so it kinda worked for the prolapse. I think I went in knowing it was never going to be 100%, you know, and they kind of prepped me for that, that it was never going to be perfect, I guess. But it is better, and when I have bad days with it, I have to tell myself, look, this is so much better than what it was before. And I saw the consultant a few months ago now, and she said structurally it looked pretty normal, so that's good. But I had nerve damage, I had an assisted delivery with forceps and I've had some nerve damage ever since. So, yeah, I have like, pain with that. But to be honest, I think it is slowly getting better. Don't get me wrong, there are bad months where it's way worse again, and you're like, why has this happened? And what's going on? But the last couple of months have been fine again.

I think last time perhaps we spoke, I don't know when it was now, a few months ago wasn't it, and it had flared up quite bad at that time, but honestly, since then it's not been too bad at all. I've had about a bad week or two where it's just kind of gotten worse, but then it settled back down again. So, you know, I'm hoping that if that's the way it's got to be now, I can manage that. If I know that if when I have a flare up, it's not going to be forever and I can just kind of manage it. But yeah, they did give me some painkillers for nerve pain, but to be honest, because it's so intermittent, I'm kind of reluctant to take them. I'm just managing it. So, yeah, I can't complain, really. I really honestly can't complain.

Helen

You can. If you like.

Skye

No, I live the life that I want to live, apart from I'd like to run further than I can, and I'd probably like to do more jumping.

Helen

Hang on, hang on, because your level of like...when you say you'd like to run further than you can, you want to do marathons or something?

Skye

No, not even that. I used to be able to run 10k and that was great, but now I run for half an hour, like 5k, really slow, plodding along, and it's fine. I like to get out this fresh air and I enjoy it, so really, I can't complain. And like I said to you before, I've just been jumping around to the Prodigy with my son before I came onto this call, so I can't complain. And I know it's probably not the best for me, and like I said to you before, I think maybe there's times when I do probably things I shouldn't do, like jumping, like carrying him uphills and things.

Helen

No, hang on. No. When I started out on this whole journey, whatever you want to call it, I was like, yeah, don't do this, don't do that. So much fear, doing the wrong thing. Shouldn't be doing that. Blaming myself. I'm not having that anymore. Don't be reckless. Go gently. Find a way to train yourself in the appropriate way to get to where you want to be. Maybe don't be going for marathons or whatever, but don't be feeling bad for trying stuff.

Skye

Yeah, no, I just do what I want to do. And honestly, if I look back to what it was like, say, this time three years ago, it was pretty dire. It was really bad, the prolapse was bad, the pain was really bad. And things are different now.

Jess

Nerve pain takes ages as well to heal or to change.

Skye

It does, yeah. Maybe if we do this call in, like, three years time, who knows, it might have gotten better. Maybe we'll all be doing a marathon together.

Jess

I just ran down to shop and back. It was fine.

Skye

Yeah. So things are good. Things are all good. Yeah.

How are you? And we allowed to talk about that? Or should we save that for after? No. How are you?

Helen

I'm great. No, I think...so. the last few weeks, it's been giving me a bit of jip, the old prolapse. Just a bit present, just a bit like bulgy. But I haven't been doing my exercise or my pelvic floor exercise. I've just had a few weeks of just...I don't know. You know those weeks when nothing comes together and you just can't be bothered to do whatever you're supposed to be doing? And I think that's why, really. And so I was just feeling a bit more symptomatic, but I'm back on it again now, back to trying to do...so my way of doing it is I do, like, three sets of pelvic floor exercises a day. Whenever I can. Whenever I remember. And I try and do my little park run a couple of times a week, and then I try and do maybe like a low impact hit class or a pilates class or that sort of stuff in a week. So I try and do all that and I find that when I do all that, I feel much better. But how much of that is, like, psychological and how much of that is physical, I don't know.

But I have also this week, finally got around to asking for a GP appointment so I can get a referral to go back to the pessary clinic.

Jess

Oooh the pessary clinic.

Helen

I did ring up the pessary clinic just to see if I was still on the books, and I wasn't, and they said there was a six month waiting list.

Skye

Six months?!

Helen

Apparently. So we'll see how that goes. I hear good things about the cube pessary, because I tried a couple of rings a while back and I just didn't really feel the benefit of them. So I'm just wondering.

Skye

My mate had a cube and she rated it massively. Yeah. She thought it was really good.

Jess

You can't leave it in, can you? That's the only thing. You have to take it in and out, don't you. But yeah. Do you know what, I was thinking about that? Because today I was thinking, like, actually, I'm getting to the point now where I want to run or do more. Not quite yet, because I've still just only had a baby. I'm not going to make that mistake. Not going to be running at three months.

Skye

No, sit down. Eat cake.

Helen

I don't know why I've put it off for so long. I think I was a little bit, like, maybe thinking, if it doesn't work, I've lost a life. Do you know what I mean? Maybe this is one of the last things that I'll try when or if things get worse. So maybe I was just kind of, like, saving it. But that's just crazy. So I thought I'll just see what happens.

Jess

I think it's a good idea for exercise and stuff. Or if, you know, you're having, like, a heavy duty day, actually. It's just the faff of it. That's what I like about the ring, it just stays up there, even though it hasn't been...the ring with support was helpful during pregnancy and maybe I'll try it again in a bit. But, yeah, I feel like I would like something a bit more heavy duty.

Helen

Can I ask you something that you don't have to answer?

Jess

Yeah. So there's two things that people tend to think about petri's. One, that for the for old ladies, like, they are too young to have one, and then...

Jess

That's what they get told.

Helen

Yeah. And then the second thing is that they can't have sex with them in.

Jess

Yeah. No, you can have sex with them in, apparently. I don't know.

Helen

Did you say can or can't?

Jess

You can.

Helen

Yes. I found that I could.

Jess

With the ring. Not with the cube, you can't.

Helen

No. Which is why you have to take it in and out.

Jess

Yeah, but the ring yeah, you can. And the ring with support, you can. Well, I never felt it.

Helen

No. When I did try when I tried the ring yeah, that was fine. It was more of a mental thing of like, oh, my goodness, I've got a plastic thing, or a silicone thing in the way. It was a bit of a mood killer.

Skye

I can see how that works.

Jess

I feel like I might want to go for one of those horrible do-da things.

Helen

I have no idea what that means

Jess

I don't want to say it. A proctogram.

Helen

Is that a camera up the bum?

Skye

No, it's basically where you...it's a poopogram, basically. They put this...I don't know what..it's like the consistency of, like, toothpaste or something, up your bottom. And then sit you on a pretend toilet and then take X rays of you pooping it out and then basically, it's got barium in it, so you can see on the X-ray what's left inside your vagina as to how your rectocele is. It's kind of an indicator how big your rectocele is.

Helen

Does this mean, Jess, that you are thinking about trying to get some surgery? Why are you interested in getting a proctogram?

Jess

You know what I'm like? I like to know the nitty gritty.

Skye

Honestly. I think if you are going to go for surgery, it's something that they probably would want to do at some point

Jess

Yeah at some point I was thinking...because I'm not saying that I want surgery for definite. So my plan...is I'm not as physically fit as I should be or want to be.

Helen

Who is?

Jess

So I feel...I don't want to go down the surgery route until I've exhausted getting fitter. And actually, I know that my glutes don't do any work whatsoever. I've got a jelly bum...

Helen

Which is common after you've had a baby

Skye

It's common after lockdown, isn't it?

Jess

So, yeah, I want to get fit, but also, I did ask to be re referred because obviously I'm not planning on having any more children and I'm a bit sick of living like this, but equally, I don't...I want to make sure that I'm fit. So I'm not saying yes to surgery, but...I think it was a bit of a wake up call, if you like, when I was pregnant, because I felt so much better...that actually I'd been a really miserable for two years and just not myself. I still don't feel myself now. I'm saying that and you probably picked a...like we went just for this nice walk. And it was nice. But my son looks to his dad to do all of the physical stuff, and I just stand there or sit down or hold the pram or what have you. And I'm not doing all that physical stuff. And actually, I would be doing that. Helen

Not at three months you wouldn't.

Jess

No

Not three months after you've just had a baby. So give it time and do have a bit of a plan, but don't beat yourself up. It's really early days.

Jess

It is, but I think it was just a wake up call being pregnant, knowing actually the last few years have not been me, and I'm not that person that like...well, I am that person, but I want to do more and be more physical and actually I enjoy all of that stuff.

Skye

It's great that he had such a good pregnancy, isn't it?

Jess

Yeah, I know, because he was a big baby.

Skye

You've got options down the line, should you need them, and that must be quite a good feeling, you know, like yeah.

Jess

So that's what I mean. I'm going to try and get fit. I've actually I like, subscribed to a pelvic floor...for one of the Instagrammers that I've said for you to follow. Can I mention people's names on here?

Helen

Yeah, go for it. If it's someone that's helped. And yeah.

Jess

Dana Landgren. Dana is her first name in Landgren? Yeah. And she just does really good pelvic floor stuff that's safe. That's her kind of niche, isn't it?

Helen

I remember when you started doing that and you sent a message saying you were getting a sweat on for the first time. You were loving it.

Jess

Yeah, I was. Did you know what? I was actually pregnant then. I didn't realise, but no, yeah, you can get a sweat on and it's like, oh, I love that cardio burn. And I felt good doing it and, yeah, it's brilliant.

Helen

Do you feel like you still think about all this stuff as much as you used to? For me, I know prolapse was just really central in my mind for years, like, annoyingly present. And I don't think it is as much. It's not as much now. It doesn't rule my life in the same way that it used to. Do you feel like that?

Skye

I don't think it is as much as in my life either, to be honest with you. I remember thinking, if I could just get to a point where it's like an annoying thing a bit...that you just get used to. You know, like, say if you've got, like, a bit of a filling in your mouth that just, like, gets in the way, but you just kind of get used to it, but it's still a bit annoying. That's kind of how it is now to me. It's there, but it's just a part of me and it's annoying, but it's bearable. It's definitely much more bearable than it used to be.

Jess

Yeah. I would agree. I don't think about it as much. I mean...

Helen

Do you still get the mirror out as much?

Jess

Well, you will laugh. When you're thinking about your prolapse 24/7 literally every hour of every minute. Anything is a plus when you don't think of it that often, so, yeah, I don't think of it actually that often. Or if I do think of it, I don't ruminate on it. So I walked up the stairs and I was like ufff..but I wasn't like, oh, God, what's it look like? I'm going to get the mirror out now. Whereas I probably would have been.

But I did get the mirror out the other day. Today, actually. I don't know, I thought I'd have a look to see if does it look any worse? I don't think it did. So that was good after having a baby.

Helen

Is that the first look you've had in three months?

Jess

Yeah, probably.

Helen

Woah!

Jess

Yeah, maybe once before. I know. I had to ban all the mirrors in the house. It's really annoying I've actually got no proper mirror to look now.

Helen

These two crack me up. I'm not sure how much we've learnt there, but I very much enjoyed it, and I hope you did too. And obviously, none of it is intended as medical advice.

The next episode is inspired by a lot of pessary chat that was happening on my Instagram a couple of weeks ago. There's definitely misunderstanding and misinformation around, so we're going to go on a bit of a deep dive. That's next week on Why Mums Don't Jump with me, Helen Ledwick.

Series 2 is starting to draw to a close, so if you do have a few minutes, I'd really appreciate some help spreading the word. I'd love for more women around the world to find the podcast and take some comfort from it, so please recommend it wherever you feel comfortable. Share a link in a Facebook group or on WhatsApp or anywhere else you can think of. And if you can, write a review. You can now support the podcast on buymeacoffee.com/whymumsdontjump. Thanks to everyone who has done that already. You can find me on social media @whymumsdontjump or online at whymumsdontjump.com. Bye for now.