Having Another Baby After Prolapse - Episode Transcript

Helen

Hi, I'm Helen, and this is Why Mums Don't Jump - busting taboos about leaks and lumps after childbirth. All the stuff that happens to your pelvic floor that no one ever talks about. Incontinence, prolapse, pelvic pain - problems that affect millions of women, one in three. I'm one of them.

I have a prolapse. My pelvic organs fell out of place after the birth of my second child five years ago. And if you'd told me then I'd be speaking about this stuff out loud, I would have told you to give your head a wobble.

Hi and welcome back. The sun is shining in Manchester. Yes, that does sometimes happen. And doesn't it just make everything feel that little bit brighter?

Thank you to Dawn, who listens and says the podcast is like having a conversation with a friend. That is exactly how I see it and how I wanted it to feel. So that's brilliant to hear. Thank you. And she says it's helped her to feel more positive, which is even better. And I think it's exactly the vibe of today's episode, which is about prolapse and going on to have more children.

So, for me, as you know, my prolapse happened after the birth of my son, my second child, and our family was complete. So I haven't really had to figure out whether or how I would go through all that again. But I know it's a really big issue for a lot of women, because if you make the decision to try again and then you do fall pregnant, is it nailed on that things are going to get worse? If you have a Caesarean, will that help?

Clare Bourne is a pelvic health physio based in London. She's @clarebournephysio on Instagram, where she is a font of knowledge and advice on all things pelvic floor.

But she's also opened up about her own experience of prolapse, which happened after the birth of her daughter four years ago. She's since gone on to have a son who's just over a year old, so she couldn't be better qualified for this. And we talk about births and healing and even if growing your family isn't on the cards, Clare has lots of great advice.

Clare

I guess prolapse was like the one thing I really didn't want to happen. And I think as physios or in our profession, it was always that, like, oh, prolapse, it's always talked about in that way, isn't it? And I think it was on the list of things I really don't want to happen, so I'll do everything I can.

So I had a really, on paper, textbook birth, which I was delighted about. I was like, great, everything went into plan pretty much, apart from I had done a longer pushing stage, but within what they would label as normal. So I was like, great, I think I'm going to recover really, really well.

And then it was sort of like...the first few weeks, you just feel weird anyway, you have no idea. Should this feel like this? Should it not feel like this? A baby just came out of there, so I don't know.

And it was probably around...I'd had some...so they'd done some stitches, which probably in hindsight, they sort of did too much and it was really uncomfortable. And they basically stitched some skin onto muscle, which restricted how my muscles could move. Yeah, and it was really uncomfortable.

So I remember messaging one of my friends who is a physio and was like, can I come and see you in clinic, because I just don't think things are right? And so she said, "yeah, look, come in". And she was running a perineal clinic. She's like, look, get your GP to refer you. We'll book you in, we'll sort you out.

And then I went about six to eight weeks, I think. I went in and I was like, I just don't know. Things just don't feel right. And I think I'd always had this label of 'dragging', and I'd never really known what that actually felt like. And I was like, "Hmm maybe this is dragging. Maybe this is what everyone talks about." And I said to her, like, I'm really worried that... I made sure I didn't look. I was like, I don't want to assess myself because I think that's sometimes the worst thing that you can try and do. And she was like, yeah, there is some prolapse there.

And I was just like...I mean I was 28 at this point, in my eyes really young. It was never the time when I thought I'd hear the words, "you've got a prolapse". And I was, yeah. It was just absolutely devastating. And in the same day, I booked in with one of the consultants who I knew to put a coil in, and she was in, like, a flippant conversation. I said, "oh, I've just been told I've got a prolapse". She's like, "oh, yeah, there's some kind of prolapse there, but you know, everyone's got to have something". And it was, like, really throw away.

And I really respect this consultant, and...she knew me really well. And it was so funny experiencing what everyone else experiences, because I think as professionals, we can get a bit flippant and we can be like, yeah, there's a prolapse there. Yeah, never mind. You know, it'll be fine. You'll do some pelvic floor and it will be fine. But actually, to live it, it's so not fine.

Even if you know the research, even if you know everything could be okay at some point in the future, in that moment, nothing feels fine. And it is like, you're given this death sentence of, like, this is your life now. And I felt like I'd been aged about 60 years in that just one moment. And everything spins, you're like, "was it my fault? Should I have done more pelvic floor? I should know better. I should have birthed better. If only I had done this. If only..."

And you go down this spiral of like, what ifs? And ultimately nothing I could do could change it. But it really rocked me. And you're early postnatal, you've got hormones flying. I remember in that same trip to the hospital, I'd managed to feed, I think, twice from the wrong side. So then I'd leaked all down my shirt, I was in central London, I had a new baby. I'd driven there on my own, which was about 45 minutes. I remember just being like, this is so not what I signed up for, this is so full on. And yeah, I mean, I remember just being devastated. Like, obviously you have this weird, like, I'm still so delighted for this amazing baby, but wow, this is so not how I imagined it to be. And I got really stuck in a rut for quite a long time about it.

Helen

It's interesting that you had all those emotions, I guess, that everybody has, but even though you had all the knowledge, you still lived it in the same way that everyone else is. And it is just like everything you've described resonates completely with me and just that sense of permanency. Right, that's it now, then. OK.

Clare

Absolutely, yeah, exactly. And I think because it's given so much as like, 'well yeah it's prolapse, that's just it.'

And there's never this conversation, it feels like a lot of the time. When actually... I think the word prolapse as well - I think we don't often delve into it enough in some ways - but actually a prolapse, you can have prolapses of different things. And I think sometimes...you can have a prolapse disc in your back and I think that the conversation and the language about it is quite different. It's like, 'Okay, great. Well, we're going to do this, and we're going to do this. And then you'll have painkillers to this point, and then you'll probably do this sort of physiotherapy and then we'll...' And it's never given that sort of same permanency, even though probably, yes, the disc will always be changed, but it doesn't mean that your pain and your experience will be what you're experiencing right now.

But I don't think when it comes to vaginal prolapse, we approach it quite in the same way. And obviously, I know that biologically it is a different thing, but actually, when you come down to it, it's like, yes, there are changes in those walls, yes, there are changes in where those pelvic organs are for some people, however, that doesn't mean that we're going to live like this forever. And I think it's that conversation that I think sometimes missing.

But again, as I say, even though I knew that, I just couldn't get myself into that place. And it was a colleague of mine, another colleague friend, who I knew had experienced prolapse as well and I remember just calling her, and just being like, 'how did you get through this? I just don't know what to do.' And she was so helpful. She was kind of like a year on from where I was and she was like, 'It does get better. I've been able to do this, I've been able to do that.' And actually, she said for me, for a while, just sort of leave the pelvic floor alone, almost just like, switch off from it. Because I think sometimes with prolapse you get so...and I don't know if you experienced this...but you just get so obsessed with it. And how does it feel today? Does it feel better? Was it better this morning than this evening? Have I done something today that's made it worse?

Helen

Yeah. It's just ever present. It's like at the forefront of your mind all the time, whatever else is going on.

Clare

Totally, that's the thing. And you're trying to be a parent, and yet in your head, you're like, I feel it. Oh, no, did I wear the sling too much today? Oh, did I walk too much today? I can't even walk to the coffee shop. All I want to do is get a coffee.

And you just go round and round and round around on it. And she was so good at being like, "just park it for a month and just know you will get better, but you're still super early days. Just leave it, give your brain a break."

And actually, that's just what I needed. And actually, I just stopped doing any pelvic floor exercises, which obviously is opposite to what the research says, but I just mentally needed a break. And actually it really helped me kind of, I think, just have a bit of space from it and then come back to it. And then I felt a bit more confident, but my confidence was really what was knocked.

When you think about it, okay, there's been a lot of changes in my body. Like, it's not like just my vaginal tissues have changed. My tummy tissues have changed, my breast tissues have changed. Like, there was a lot of changes in my body, but it's funny how the ones that happen vaginally are just so much more emotive, for obvious reasons. But I think for me, a huge part of the journey has been accepting that though there are physical changes in my body, it doesn't have to mean that all of my life, therefore changes. And that's been a huge part, I think of the last four...it's nearly four years, actually, next week is four years, but it's taken me time to get there, for sure.

Helen

Yeah. And I guess moving on to the decision then to have another child, was it even something that was a big consideration for you? Because I know for a lot of women, it is a really real fear, isn't it?

Clare

Yeah, absolutely. So it was definitely a fear. But I definitely knew I wanted more children, so it was kind of like, I've got to get myself to a place where I felt able to be pregnant again. So that first year postnatal, initially, I didn't physically really do much exercise wise. I just kind of just did some pelvic floor and did some walking. And then about a year post natal, I was like, I've really got to do something about this, and I was going back to work and things like that. So I got in touch with our local Holistic Core Restore coach. I don't know if you've come across them?

Helen

Yeah, I actually did the same thing. But not until three or four years after it happened. And it was what inched me back into some exercise.

Clare

That was it. And it was just someone, I think, telling me what to do. Again, I had all the knowledge, but I just needed someone to tell me what to do, to give me a programme. And I basically, through that second year, became completely asymptomatic.

And I'm sure it totally was, because I was training my body to withstand the pressures of everyday life. And I think that's such a key message with prolapse, isn't it? The language has always been like, "protect, protect, don't lift heavy, don't do sit ups, don't lift anything. Protect, protect."

But actually, what we're really now realising, and I think the language is obviously hugely changing, is, like, you're still doing these things in everyday life. Like, if you videoed yourself throughout your day, you are squatting, lunging, lifting heavy weights. So just because we tell you not to do that in a workout doesn't mean that you're not doing it. We need to train your body for those moments.

So I think when I obviously went back into that training for life, my symptoms massively changed. And I think also mentally, I changed because I was like, wow, I can do so much more. My confidence grew and it was huge. And so by the end of that, so I actually chose to...well, I breastfed for two years the first time, and so I was very much like, I really want to finish breastfeeding, give myself a short window, a break, before I go and do it all again.

So that was part of the decision and part of it was like, I just want to give myself as long as possible to have got as strong as possible before I kind of do it all again. So it definitely was a consideration, but I guess my prolapse was on the mild side, so that was all part of the consideration as well.

But I kind of just knew I just had to kind of get on with it and I accepted that it could get worse, I accepted that I may be more symptomatic in pregnancy, but, yeah, it was kind of just like, I just wanted to have more children. And so I was also like, I don't know how the birth is going to go. I was like, just fall pregnant and then almost deal with it then. And I was like I could...not that this is necessarily recommended, but there is always a consideration. Do I have another vaginal birth or do I have a Caesarean birth?

Helen

It's the big question. If you're going to do it, how do you do it?

Clare

It's the big question...And I went through all of that. In the end, I decided I wanted to try and have a vaginal birth again because it had been so uncomplicated the first time. I was like, the likelihood is that it will be uncomplicated again. And rather than having to go and have major surgery, I was like, I think I could do it. And because I was asymptomatic at this point, I was like, I think let's try. And part of my problem the first time was I laboured really quickly at home and then I had the transition into hospital, which slowed things down, and then it was that trying to get things going again, which then was, I think, part of the challenge. I think almost if I'd stayed here, I would have had my daughter within probably the hour. But first time around, you've literally got no clue.

But now, having given birth again, I can see the signs were exactly the same. And I gave birth literally like, half an hour after those moments. So I said...my husband - who's a doctor so this is really interesting - he was like, let's have a home birth. And I was like, you are crazy! And I was like, no! But he was like...I think it's sometimes easier for them if they've been watching you, because he was like, 'I think you would have done it at home last time if we'd known and we would have had support.' But you never know how you're going to labour.

But, yeah, he was born within, like, 2 hours at home. It was, like, super rapid. My body sort of just did it and I think yeah, I just felt really relaxed and comfortable and I didn't think about the prolapse actually in the delivery at all. I mean there are so many other things going on, aren't there? You're like, 'Just get this baby out of me!'

But, yeah. And actually, through most of the pregnancy, my symptoms didn't get worse, which was amazing. And I was good at doing my pelvic floor. And I did go and see a physio and I made sure that I did my perineal massage and I did everything that I tell other women to do. So I really tried to just kind of look after myself. But also I kept more active, I think, in pregnancy. In my first pregnancy, we were, like, doing up our house. It was a mental nine months, and so it was literally...I did do some exercise, but not as much. And I really tried the second time...and I don't know if I was just more active. I had a kid already, there just wasn't the option not to be. But I think definitely keeping strong in pregnancy made a big difference to my post natal recovery. And I think I was more confident in my post natal recovery as well second time, to just get on with a few more things, knowing that actually when I was more active, my prolapse symptoms were better.

Helen

And I suppose in a way maybe trusting yourself a little bit more to know if things are going in the right direction or if you need to take a break or if you need to do a little bit more?

Clare

Yeah, completely. And I think also just knowing I'd recovered before. You know, having that lived experience that I was like, even if I'm more symptomatic for this first year, I know I still recovered much better within the second year, when maybe I was getting a bit more sleep, I had a bit more time to think about myself, things like that. And I think just that lived experience has just helped me just be a bit more relaxed and take the rough days as they come. Because I think, as you know, with prolapse, it's such a roller coaster, isn't it? You have these, like, better bits and you're like, yeah, it's fine, and then you have a week or day where you're like, 'oh no, everything is back where it was!'

Helen

And what did I do? How did this happen? What did I do to make this happen?

Clare

Exactly. And you analyse everything you've done and then...and you just lose perspective as well, because...and I know this from sitting with women, you know, and I'm like, but actually your symptoms were not for so many days, or they're actually not as bad as they were six months ago when we started this journey. But you can't see that when you're in it. When you're in that day, you're like, no, everything is back where it was.

Helen

Again, because it's something you can't see. And this is part of the big problem with this, isn't it? It's not like a cut on your finger that you can monitor as it heals or did you get it infected or whatever. It's all in the head because that's the only way you have of monitoring it, really. Okay, so you can look, but still, you know what I mean?

Clare

But even if you look, prolapse can look different between the time of the day when I examine some women at different times in their cycle. It's really hard because I get this message and this question so much from women, especially on social media, like, will it ever go? Will it be gone? And the honest answer is, maybe not. But actually that doesn't matter. I'm not saying it doesn't matter in the sense of it does matter to me, I feel changed, but it's coming to that acceptance of, like, it's not that that will change probably what you're looking for, because what most of us want is to not have symptoms and to be able to do what we love. When you break it down...

Helen

To be able to do what you want to do.

Clare

...This is the thing. When we break it down, it's like, what do we really want? And yes, okay, most of us would love the fact that our vaginal wall was not stretched and was not changed, but really, on the day to day, no one's going to know. I can't see it. What I really want is to be not symptomatic of it and, as you say, to do what you want.

Helen

And it's been a year, I guess now? Your little one's just turned one. How have you found your prolapse with the recovery? Have you noticed it's got any worse, particularly since before you had him? What's it been like?

Clare

So initially I was like, wow, I'm really surprised at how well I've recovered. I really just didn't feel really much more symptomatic. It's really hard though postnatal, isn't it, because you're not doing as much as you probably did before. And I think sometimes it's that activity versus symptoms. And I think gf I did a bit more, maybe I'd be more symptomatic. I definitely noticed it when I was sort of baby wearing a lot and he had reflux really badly, and we went into lockdown number one when he was, like, eight weeks old or around eight to ten weeks.

Helen

So stress as well.

Clare

Stress, this is the thing. And in that time, it was absolutely crazy and I'd put everything in place in my life to cope with two children. Like, I was going to have two sets of grandparents coming one day a week. Nursery was going to start in the spring. Like, we had the groups booked in, you know everything was put in place and suddenly overnight, I had literally everything stripped. And not only that, but my husband just was so busy he couldn't even come home. He'd come home to help with bath time. He wasn't there. So I was literally like, I am on my own here and I've just got to get on. And really, I had to have him in the sling for a lot of the day because, one, I couldn't do anything with my toddler. He couldn't lie down flat because his reflex was so bad. So I just had to almost park myself and just say, I will deal with this when I can, but right now I've got to survive. So in that time, I would say I was a bit more symptomatic by the end of the day. It was that classic, like, morning was okay. I'd babywear a lot during the day - I'm not anti-babywearing, baby wearing is life - but when we add weight or we add challenges, it can make you more symptomatic. Not everybody, but some people. And I personally just found that did aggravate me by the end of the day. So I had a few months like that, really. And then I think I was able to do a bit more activity. Once the summer came, and things settled a little bit in the crazy, and definitely I noticed that once I'm more active exercise wise, I feel much better. And I mean, like, workouts, not just pelvic floor exercises. And then, yeah, really, then he's become more able and more so I guess I've been carrying less.

But I'd say this last six months has been a bit up and down and I think a lot of that has been hormones, like periods returning, things like that. So then I was like, oh, I've been fine for three weeks. And I was like, why am I suddenly more symptomatic? And then you'd have your period, you'd be like, right, that's why. But I haven't had periods for a year and a half, or however long it's been, so that was definitely a change.

And they get big and they get heavy, and then they teethe and they just want to cling on you again, and then you're trying to lug toddlers - and at the minute, the only way I can see people is if I go out for a long walk in the mud - and then I'm pushing the buggy, dragging scooters. When you look at my life, I'm constantly physically doing stuff.

So, yeah, I've accepted the rough with the smooth. I definitely found the recovery easier than last time. I think sometimes I can't decide if that's a physical thing or a mental thing at times, but I think both. I think physically I found it easier, but also I didn't have any stitches in my muscles this time, so I think I felt like my pelvic floor just recovered quicker. I still think they're recovering a year post natal. I don't believe in...it's not a six week thing.

Helen

Oh, no

Clare

I'm still working on it. And some days I just forget. It's my job. I talk about it constantly, I talk to people about it constantly, but then I get to the end of the day, I'm like, I've done no pelvic floor exercises today. We're all the same.

Helen

Yeah, okay, well, that's going to offer a lot of positivity and hope, I think, for a lot of women. So I read that there isn't a lot of research around this. Is it automatically the case that another pregnancy will make your prolapse worse?

Clare

I don't think there is a lot of, like, concrete. I think any time we add load and weight to weakened structures, if you like, you're kind of saying, well, there could be ongoing weakening. Personally, for me, there wasn't a huge amount of change. Again, it depends on what that birth is. If you maybe then went on and had a forceps delivery or a ventouse or another significant tear, it might be different. And I think sometimes women experience things after a second birth, and that second birth gets all of the blame. But actually, I think sometimes... and I've seen this in myself as well, I think we forget that our pelvic health is not just boundaried to pregnancy and postnatal. Part of my story was I had something called Hypothalamic Amenaria, which basically means...no periods for a significant amount of time based on...to do with your brain and stuff like that. So I had about, I think it was about three or four years of no natural periods. So I'd been on HRT that menopausal women would be put on. I'd tried loads of different pills. I was really progesterone tolerant, it was just this crazy concoction of hormones for about three or four years, but I'd had no natural periods. And part of that had been it really affected my bowels. And I know a lot of menopausal women talk about this like...being more constipated, bowels being a bit of a problem. And so I honestly think some of those changes had happened before I even fell pregnant. And so again, when you can look at a bird's eye view of the whole picture, often the one thing that created your symptoms is just the straw that broke the camel's back, it's not the whole picture. But I know having talked to lots of obstetricians, and I did a post about this because I know so many women ask about it, often a Caesarean is not recommended because actually the pregnancy itself is a huge part of it. And even if we give you a Caesarean doesn't mean that you're not going to have had a progression of a prolapse. And it's that whole thing of like, do we then give you major surgery and potentially other complications or do we...?

But again, it's never ever one picture. And it depends on your physical health, it depends on your mental health. And I know for myself, I thought, what if I get to that point of trying to push a baby out and I just can't, because emotionally I'm like, I don't want to push, I don't want to make it worse. Thankfully, I was fine and to be honest you don't think about it, as I say, it just happened. But there's so many things and we have to journey that with women. And I think my message to women is always like, flag as early as possible that you're concerned, that you're worried in that booking appointment. You know yes, you may not get a Caesarean or you may not even really want a Caesarean, but have that conversation. The conversation is warranted and all of it is risk benefit, isn't it?

Helen

There's just no one answer, is there? And yes, you could have another vaginal birth and yes, it could get worse, or you could have another vaginal birth, and actually it doesn't get worse at all. And the same can apply to a C section. I get why it's such a big deal for a lot of women. And I think one of the things that occurs to me is that it's not selfish to ask those questions, like being worried about what might happen to your prolapse. That's not a selfish thing. Okay. We all think it should all be about the baby, what's best for the baby, but actually that's a big part of it as well. So ask those questions.

Clare

100%, because if you're going to go into motherhood having your mental health even more impacted because of a physical symptom or a physical condition, that's never going to be best for the baby. And I think so long for us to move past this pressure on women to be like, just be thankful you have a healthy baby. It's like, oh, I am...

Helen

That's a big one, isn't it?

Clare

A big one. And I'm 100% thankful for my children and I would do it all again for them. 100%. But I'm also 100% me and 100% interested in my own physical wellbeing, because I want to look after my kids and I want to be able to lift them, and I want to run after them when they're scooting down the road at a million miles an hour. And I don't want them to fall into the road. I am as important and I think that just is so it's so hard to sometimes say I am important, too.

Helen

I'm going to let you go in a minute because, I know you've got a lot going on, but I just wanted to ask you one last thing, which was about, I guess, about your openness. Your Instagram is great. Like, you talk about your own experience and put all this advice out there for people. Was it a big decision for you to talk about your own experience openly like that? Especially as a physio and a kind of professional on the other side of things. What informed that decision and how difficult was it?

Clare

Yeah, it took me a long time because I think one, I try and keep it as professional as possible...because...I didn't show a lot of my own life for quite a long time. And then I realised, as I was kind of in social media a bit more and I saw women talking, I was like, there's just no one opening up these conversations. And I saw a lot more conversations opening up about like, oh, I've been incontinent, oh, I've leaked urine. I've never had that problem. It's never been a problem for me. And I just saw this and I was like, there's no one actually talking and almost giving a voice to prolapse and giving a face to prolapse, isn't it? Because I think the face of prolapse if you look at anything online, is an older woman. And I just was like, you know what? If I can't talk about this when I talk about this as, like, every second word in my job, no one else is going to do it. And I just got to the point...I'm generally quite an open person anyway...and I just thought, I'll just share. What's the worst that can happen? And I did. And the response was crazy. Like, so many women being like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe it. Because I think people think what comes with my job description is 'My pelvic floor is awesome' and I'm like sadly...

Helen

You and your perfect pelvic floor.

Clare

Yeah, exactly. It's top of my CV.

It's just not the case, you know, we live it in the same way as everyone else. And sometimes I think we're a little bit crazy as pelvic health physios because we're so obsessed. But I just was like, I'm going to put it out there. I didn't really discuss it with anyone. It was part of like, yeah, I done my postnatal check and I thought, I'm just going to say it. And then women were really resonating with it, and I was like, alright, well, I'll just share a bit more because actually, why not? Why not? And actually, I've been amazed at how many people have been like, thank you for sharing. It's really helped me in my own journey to know, because I think it's the loneliness in it that is part of the problem.

Helen

Yes.

Clare

And as you say, you go on a forum and everyone's having surgery, or that seems to be the only option, or it's just the end of...time. And I was like, we need a different narrative and we need to start saying to women, this is not the end. And if I can do something to help that, then you know what, I feel like I should. It's part of my job. That's what I do in my day job. So why should I not do that on social media?

I never imagined when I was on social media that I'd ever have sort of a platform that I could share this on. I never started it for that reason. I just thought, oh, I'll just see what happens.

Helen

I don't think anyone sets out to talk about their vagina on social media, really. No. This is the thing I'll make my name for.

Clare

Yeah. And I'll be known as that crazy woman that just talks about prolapse. But I think also, there's been a huge shift on social media, hasn't there? There's been a lot more professionals on there. There's been a lot more people looking for support. And actually, I think what an interesting year 2020 was.

Suddenly, my experience coincided with the Pandemic, when women couldn't get help, and I think it's been a really interesting time. And then I think that was all part of my decision as well. I was like, Women can't even access help. And we're all on social media all the time at the minute because we're stuck in our houses. Let's bring that here. Sometimes I'm like, oh, gosh, it's out there now. And in the end, I'm like, well, actually, we need to be having this conversation. There should be no shame. There should be no shame.

Helen

No shame here. Not anymore. I really hope that's helpful, especially if you have a prolapse and you're pregnant or you're thinking about having another baby. You can follow Clare on Instagram @clarebornphysio. That's all one word and it's Clare Bourne Physio.

Our conversation is obviously not intended as medical advice, so do seek out your own professional help.

In the next episode, we're going to hear from a listener, someone who messaged me way back when I started the podcast and said something like, oy, what about older women? Dr. Jan Russell describes herself as a feisty old crone. That's next week on Why Mums Don't Jump with me, Helen Ledwick.

Please keep telling your friends about the podcast. It does make a difference. And if you like, you can now support Why Mums Don't Jump on Buy Me A Coffee. And it can be completely anonymous, if you prefer. You can find the link in the show notes or on social media @whymumsdontjump or online at Why Mums Don't Jump. Bye for now.