Pop Club! - Episode Transcript

Helen

Hi, I'm Helen, and this is Why Mums Don't Jump. Busting taboos about leaks and lumps after childbirth. All the stuff that happens to your pelvic floor that no one ever talks about. Incontinence, prolapse, pelvic pain - problems that affect millions of women, one in three. I'm one of them. I have a prolapse. My pelvic organs fell out of place after the birth of my second child five years ago. And if you'd told me then I'd be speaking about this stuff out loud, I would have told you to give your head a wobble.

It's taken eight episodes, but I finally persuaded the women of what we call our Pop Club to be on the podcast. We met around 18 months ago. We all have prolapse. It affects us in different ways, but just to have someone on the end of a phone or a message, or even better, in person, who really gets it, has made a big difference to how I view my pelvic floor dysfunction. It's no longer isolating. It's actually led me to new friends. It's not embarrassing because, trust me, once you have discussed your vagina with strangers, there is nothing that you can't get into. It's weirdly uplifting, because even if one of us has a bad day, the others are there to cheer us up. And it's just been a really positive experience that I'd love for more women to have. So you're going to hear from Sky (not her real name). And Jess (also not her real name).

Sky

Let's go back to those heady days when we first go to baby classes and we feel like all our organs are falling out and we think that everyone's having a really good time.

Helen

Oh, well, go on. Tell me about when you two first met, because I obviously wasn't around. I wasn't on the scene in those days. What happened? How was that?

Jess

Well, what I remember, I don't know if you'll remember the same, I saw you, Sky, at a baby group where we didn't talk. But then obviously we must have met after that at another baby group and we started talking about the whole prolapse thing. But I remember my friend who'd had a C section was saying, oh, do you want to come to this baby group? And I just remember in the early days, like where is it? Where am I going to park? How far am I going to have to walk with the baby? Has it got stairs? How am I going to get my pram out of the car? Like all of these things whirring around any time you wanted to leave the house, just really stressful, worrying about the fear of God that you shouldn't lift your baby or you shouldn't lift your pram or you shouldn't walk upstairs.

So I remember, yeah I'll go, like dragging myself out, even though I really just wanted to wail at home. I think maybe my son was eight weeks old. And then I got there and it was up some stairs and you know when you're like, semi there, but you're just literally thinking about your prolapse. Well I was, twenty four-seven. And then I just remember, like, looking around, thinking everyone's having the perfect time. And I remember seeing Sky thinking, oh, she looks really happy with her perfect vagina. I don't know, I'm thinking, like, I was the only one in the whole wide world. And then I don't actually remember where we must have met.

Sky

I do. It was another baby group. It was a different one because I remember you came out...we were just sat there chatting as you were like, while the babies are playing, and then you just came out with it and it was such a breath of fresh air, because nobody had ever mentioned it to me ever before. I was suffering in silence, I guess, effectively. And then you came out with it and I was like, yes, I have one too. And then it was amazing for me because I'm not a very open person to talk about it. So for somebody to come out and stay in front of me and to be able to relate to that was amazing for me, and still is, to be honest.

Jess

That was my quest. It was like my way of coping. Like going out, trying to find women with prolapses. I found loads, honestly. I found someone in Trafford Centre I was chatting to.

Helen

I had a moment in the Trafford Centre as well, sitting around that fountain, just kind of blurted it out to someone. We bonded.

Jess

Yeah. This woman was like, oh, yeah, I've got a prolapse, I'm going to the hospital soon. Then I found someone in the park was like, please be careful. And you've just had a baby, you've obviously got your toddler there. You need to be really careful. Like, on anxiety alert everywhere. And she's like, yeah, I know, I've already got problems down there. Yeah, I met loads of women.

Helen

I love how open you are about it though.

Sky

I do. And I wish I could be like that honestly.

Helen

Because we, Sky, we met because of someone who came to my Instagram page, who you also know, who lives in Australia of all places. And she was like, oh I know someone in Manchester who also has with a prolapse. Yeah, I'm going to send you her number and you should just go for a coffee. And I was like, this is really weird. I'm just going to text someone out of the blue that I've never met and be like, Hi, someone we don't know who lives in Australia says we should meet. And you were just like, yeah, that's fine.

Sky

I so glad you did though! Yeah. So she's like one of my best friends still. Yeah, she's in Australia. We met many years ago when we were travelling in Asia and we stayed in touch ever since. But she had a prolapse. Thing is, the annoying thing is she told me all about it before I had my son. And I was like, that's such a rare thing, because I'd never heard anything about it. I felt awful for her, but I thought, that's never going to happen to me. And lo and behold, it happens to me.

Helen

Well, I'm dead grateful because she brought us together.

Sky

I know.

Helen

I remember walking into that cafe with what was he, my four year old at that point? Looking for you. You were like, oh, I've got another friend with a prolapse. I'll bring her along - Jess. And then I was just like...we were just straight into, like, okay, what kind of prolapse have you got? How does it feel? And the kids are running around, there's all these people around just, like, listening to us talking about our vaginas. I was like, I have never...this is the weirdest thing. But it also just felt really normal as well.

Sky

It did, and it does with you guys. It is good. It's definitely good just to kind of share experiences and stuff, because otherwise it can leave you in a bit of a lonely place, I think.

Helen

Yeah. Then Jess' husband turned up and I was like, this is getting weirder and weirder!

Jess

I know, I always say and he's like, oh, yeah. I'm like, I'm going to speak to Popcorn. He's like, all right, well say, Hi.

Helen

Sky, how are you doing? I think last time we spoke, you were having some...things were not going well? Because you had some surgery, didn't you? Because I'm never sure what...it was around the time that we met? You had just had it a few weeks before then, I think?

Sky

I think so, yeah. Basically, what happened with me, I had my son and...oh, loads of things. And I got poorly because I had to have a catheter and then I got some sepsis. And then when I finally got the catheter out, about five weeks into it, I realised something still didn't feel quite right. And then I went to the doctors and the doctor was like, oh, no, it's fine. There's nothing wrong with you. So I was like, fine. And then I went to the GP and I said to the GP can I exercise? She was like, yeah, it's fine. Just crack on. And I knew something wasn't right. I just absolutely knew it.

And then I finally went back to the GP and I said, Please, can you have another look? Because I really don't think it's right. And she went, oh, yeah, you do have a prolapse, actually. I was like, oh, brilliant. But she wouldn't refer me for physio because I wasn't having any incontinence. And she said that was the criteria at the time.

Helen

Really?

Sky

So I paid for a private physio for quite a few months, who was my angel. And she did so much good for me. She gave me so much hope and she made...my big issue was pelvic pain, and still is, actually, but at the time it was really bad. My muscles were really tense and she really helped me relax a little bit and that really helped with my pain.

Helen

Sky, sorry, what kind of pain?

Sky

It's where my muscles are too tense, I guess basically. It's like my muscles in my pelvis are like constantly running a marathon. They're just constantly under contraction. And she sent me a way to do some pelvic floor exercises to try and relax my muscles. And then when I finally got this thing called biofeedback, where they basically put something inside you so they can see how your muscles are doing, all the time where I thought I was relaxing, I was just tensing in a kind of weird way. I just had no idea what was going on down there. I had absolutely no idea. Everything was just not as it should be.

But, yeah, my private physio really helped. And then eventually I got to see a consultant at the hospital and I got to see an NHS physio, and then when I saw the consultant, she was like, yeah, you do need some surgery. So I had surgery a few weeks before I met you. My son was probably about, I think he was about 17 months old or something at the time and it was fine, the surgery was fine, it just wasn't 100% successful. So, although it has helped to some degree with going things like going to the toilet, I do still get the pain from the pelvic muscles, which is kind of unrelated to the prolapse surgery.

And then because of the...I guess where they've done the surgery, it still kind of sticks inside, so it still kind of hurts and feels uncomfortable a lot, still. But that's something that I just kind of deal with and it never kind of really stopped me doing what I wanted to do. I was kind of determined to...right, I want to be that mum that I was going to be. And although it hurt, I pushed through and I was still, whether it was right or wrong, probably wrong, I was still walking up mountains and going for runs and doing things that I wanted to do, because that's what I wanted to do, which is probably not the best thing to do, and I wouldn't definitely recommend that. But for my mental health, that's just what kind of I needed to do. So I probably didn't help myself in that sense.

But, yeah, I am where I am now and it's probably the best I'm going to be. So I just kind of have to manage my own pain and just kind of deal with it, really. And, yeah, I was still dancing around the room to 80s power ballads tonight, so...carrying my little toddler. So it can't be so bad, can it? I mean, I deal with it and it is what it is, basically. It's just... crack on now.

Helen

Are you still seeing someone? Are you hoping to progress it at all?

Sky

I did get a referral back to the hospital about the pain, but because of COVID and everything, obviously that was cancelled, which is fair enough. So I guess we'll wait a little while and maybe go back. It's the pain still that bothers me. Yeah. That's the issue.

Jess

That needs looking at, that does. You need to follow that up.

Sky

Yeah.

Helen

Oh love.

Sky

Yeah I know, but at least I've got my healthy boy and everything.

Helen

You've got us. You've got Pop Club.

Sky

Yeah, I've got Pop club. And like I said the other day when I messaged you guys, I'm so grateful for that, because I'm not like Jess. Even a lot of my closest friends don't really know about it.

Jess

Really?

Sky

Yeah. I just don't...

Jess

I wish I was more like that.

Sky

Why?! I don't, though. And I don't know what I think I'm trying to hide. I mean, I should be trying to, like you guys, trying to spread the word and break taboos, but I'm just really embarrassed. I guess I'm just really embarrassed.

Helen

Do you know what? I don't think you have to tell the whole world and I think that's absolutely fine. I think it really helps to tell someone and I would really encourage people to do that, but I don't, because I know... I don't know if you want to talk about this, but obviously we're using different names for you too, today because not everyone does feel comfortable. It's not comfortable.

The first episode of the podcast that I put out where I was kind of explaining about my vaginal woes, the day that went out and the day after, I was just like, I was so emotional and slightly in fear of what I just did.

Sky

I think you're really brave and I think it's amazing. Like, I'm massively annoyed for doing it. I'm very proud of you for doing it.

Helen

Thanks dude

Jess

Yeah, I'm proud of you

Helen

So, yeah, Jess, back to you. You were not having a great time and now you've been back and got a new pessary?

Jess

A new pessary, yeah.

Helen

How did you manage to do that in lockdown?

Jess

So, do you know what? It was brilliant. COVID was brilliant because actually, hardly anyone was there. I walked straight in, I saw a lovely lady called Jane. I cried a bit...

Sky

Oh I met her, Jane.

Helen

I think I might see have seen Jane.

Jess

I was like, you know, some of my friends from Pop Club.

Helen

So how did you go with the new pessary? You didn't... you weren't wearing one before, were you?

Jess

No, not really. No. It's brilliant.

Sky

Is it like, is it a ring, but the bit in the middle is filled in?

Jess

Yeah.

Sky

Is it one you can take in and out yourself then? Are you able to do that?

Jess

Yeah, it's literally just like the ring, but it's just got a little bit that's filled in. It's literally the ring. With a little bit in it.

Sky

Can you not feel it when it's inside, at all?

Jess

Not really.

Sky

It's like my whole body just goes, you've got something foreign in there? And it just like all my poor little muscles that are already hyper-tense just go, arrghh around it and it just doesn't feel good for me at all.

Jess

No, I have found it actually quite good, to the point where I say, oh, I wish I'd gone sooner.

Helen

Have you had a pessary before?

Jess

Yeah, I just had the ring, so I had that for a bit, but she actually said it was too big, which was great, because I was like, I think I've got a massive vagina.

Sky

You've always said that. You totally haven't.

Jess

Yeah, well, apparently I don't, but I like to catastrophise, if you haven't realised that at me by now.

Helen

I had noticed.

You definitely have to learn a lot, I think, to try and understand a little bit more, but also to let go of some of that fear as well, because that's what kind of held me back for a really long time, not wanting to do anything at all, just for fear of making it worse.

Jess

Like, I didn't go on my bike. I hadn't been on my bike. Then two and a half years later and I get on it and I'm like, oh, my goodness! Because I remember you talking about it, Sky, how you were on your bike, and I was thinking, I'm not going on my bike. That woman's crazy. I'm not doing that. And then I got on it the other day and my son was on the back and I was like, this is brilliant. This is great.

And it was an emotional moment because I was like, this is the mum that I always wanted to be! This person. Because I'm so sporty, you know, I did all the sports. Now I don't do anything, because I like team sports. I find it boring going to gym. I like netball, running, tennis

Helen

I used to love netball.

Jess

Used to do loads of tennis dates, before. None of that now.

Helen

But you did your cycling and everything didn't fall out.

Jess

Nothing fell out and it felt all right and it was fine. Back in the day, I couldn't even walk around Tesco. I remember going to Costco and I was like, I can't even walk around Costco. What is my life about?

Helen

You think you got yours in pregnancy? Yours happened in pregnancy, don't you? Is that right?

Jess

Yeah, I think so, because I had constipation. I think that was something possibly was there then, looking back.

Helen

Maybe straining on the loo or something?

Jess

Yeah. Yeah. But then I was induced. I don't really like this story

Sky

Don't tell it if you don't want to

Jess

It's fine, I didn't mind it. It's just a bit rubbish, isn't it? I found it traumatising anyway, I was induced. And that was traumatising because they just left me for ages. And then I had forceps and didn't get any kind of...honestly, the advice I got....looking back now, rubbish. Like, really disappointing from the hospital. I dunno...I know some other people, other hospitals, if you have forceps, they come and physios come and visit you and give you advice. No advice.

And then I remember I really wanted to go for a walk with my pram. I think my son was only...and this is where it used to go round in my head, like, when was that day? Was it then? But maybe eight days. I walked probably a mile to a restaurant, had some food, walked back, and I remember it feeling really heavy and uncomfortable, but I pushed through it, because that's what I wanted to do.

And then I had a stitches infection. That was just horrendous. I'd gone to the doctors and I'd lifted the car seat and I couldn't get it out. It was like a really heavy one. I was like, trying to lift it out for ages. And I was trying to do my pelvic floor, like, as I was doing it, because I did know a little bit about how to lift, but then I lifted that and carted that down some stairs. To be honest, I think that was probably the icing on the cake that day. And then I was miserable then. That was it. I don't really remember much after that. It was a year and a half of misery.

Sounds really depressing, but it was.

There was joyous times in it as well. But I was just really worried about everything and I don't know, like, oh, will you still love me? I won't be able to be a mum that I want to be. I want to play rounders, I want to run, I want to chase, I want to lift, I want to run down the street with my son when he's older. What happens if I want another one? I won't want another one. And then when I die, there'll be no one for him because he's an only child.

Sky

Oh, my God, where's that gin?

Jess

It's so stupid because lots of people are only children and it's absolutely fine. I I just...I don't know, I just completely...

Sky

You weren't in a great place were you?

Jess

I was just really miserable. But when I look back and I say to my friends, oh, my God, was I really miserable all the time? They're like, no, you were a great mum. And I think I was, but I just think there was a lot of times as well that I just used to get myself through with some box sets on Netflix. That's that's my story.

Sky

How is it now?

Helen

Yeah. I'm kind of...I'm a lot better. I don't know, I feel like I have all the things that I've worried about. Some of those things have happened and it's all been okay, which then really annoys me, because I do this all the time. I worry about something for ages and then it just turns out fine, and I think, Why have I worried about that? And I think, oh, I spent, like, a whole...and I remember my mum saying to me, don't waste this time worrying. It's all very well someone's saying that to you, but when you're in it, it's really hard, and it's like, if that's kind of the type of person you are, it's really hard to take your focus off those things.

But I just think, actually, I think it's just to come into terms, isn't it, really, that that's happened? And I think when that's embroiled in trauma as well from a birth, I think that's extra hard to manage. So I think that was just especially hard at that time. I think it is all around, like, this social media thing, because I remember saying to my mum, well, no one told me that I couldn't walk or I couldn't lift. And she was like, Well (I mean, helpful) well of course it's obvious.

Helen

No, it's not

Jess

It's not obvious in this day and age

Helen

It's six weeks and snap back.

Sky

Yeah you see them running around the park with the push chairs and stuff and you're like, I want to be like that. I want that to be me.

Jess

Exactly. You have a baby and you're out of the hospital within a day, what have you. Like, I had forceps, I was out of the hospital within a day, no real advice. And so then you see all the people that are out, you see social media people like, oh, I'm backing my jeans after six weeks. I remember trying to get my jeans on at six weeks and I think they got up to my thighs. And I didn't put weight, obvious weight on during pregnancy, but obviously my hips had just gone into those child bearing hips.

Sky

My separation of my abdominal muscles was ridiculous. It was like a metre or something. Not a metre, but it was like a good six or seven centimetres when I was assessed. That's a lot. I mean, that puts a lot of weight...well, looks like a lot of weight around your middle

Helen

Has that gone now then?

Sky

Not completely. I reckon it's still a couple of centimetres

Helen

Diastasis

Sky

I think it is what it is, to be honest. I still try and do my tummy exercises every day that she gave me.

Jess

She's like the model patient. It's really annoying.

Helen

She is, isn't she?

Sky

Yeah, I'm I'm dreaming one day that it'll go, but it's probably never going to go in or honesty now, but, you know, can dream. I can dream.

Helen

I mean, it always comes down to this, but I just always think about people who are listening, who are in that place where they've just found out and what you wish you would have known, or what you'd say to someone at that point?

Sky

Jess's honesty with me, like I said, was just amazing and it was just a real eye opener and it just made me feel more normal and it was just great to hear that other people were going through it. So if you are in a mum's club or whatever, don't be shy, and do open up a little bit and tell people and spread the word. And more likely, if you're anything like Jess, to meet a million people with the same thing.

Jess

True. I did find great help with finding people that lived local to me that just had a baby and was in the same situation, and it made me feel more normal. And I don't mind talking about it because I think that's what gets people through, and it is normal and it does happen. What do they say people used to use, like, pears as pessaries back in the day? It's not something that...

Helen

I heard potatoes?

Jess

Yeah, maybe potatoes. That sounds more durable, actually, than a pear.

Helen

A slightly overripe pear.

Jess

Oh yeah, you're right. A potato. That sounds better.

Helen

Please don't try this at home.

Jess

Yeah and I think... I don't know if anyone's like me and you get in your own head. I think it's really hard, because if anyone has ever said that to me, you know, what will be, will be. I would just tell them to do one, and let me wallow in my misery, which I did, and I did do it really well.

Helen

I think that's all right. I think you can wallow. I think that's all right. It's totally legit.

Jess

And I think just take every day as it comes and find a friend and chat through it, because there are loads of women out there. Like, if I can find someone at the Trafford Centre, someone at the park, someone at the baby group, someone at the hospital, a couple of people in my NCT, they're out there.

Helen

Find your Pop Club. It can only help. Clearly, we are not medical experts, so please don't take anything you heard there as medical advice, especially the pear stuff. And with that, I am bringing series one to a close, with the slight caveat of a possible bonus episode next week. Fingers crossed for that.

Helen

When I started this series, I thought I'd be happy if a handful of women heard it and found some comfort. I never could have imagined the heartfelt messages I've had from all over the world. You have trusted me with your stories. You tell me that listening has made you feel less alone, and more importantly, that it's given you hope.

There is hope. I'll be back with a second series in the not too distant future. I have some ideas about the sort of areas that I'd like to get into, but I would love to hear your thoughts. What's important to you? What sort of voices would you like to hear? What questions would you like me to ask?

whymumsdontjump.com? And in the meantime, please, please spread the word. Tell a friend spam or WhatsApp group. Put an advert on the side of a bus. Let's end the stigma. Thank you to Jules for the tech support and the cheerleading. Thanks to Sarah at Pear Projects for introducing me to the world of postnatal fitness and for the love and support for the pod. Thanks to my best friend Cath for helping me to tell my story back in episode one. And to all the other brave, wise and fabulous women who agreed to speak to me throughout the series. Thanks to Guy at Dap Dip for his podcast wisdom. And finally, thanks to my husband Paul for always believing and giving me the time and space to make it happen. Bye for now.